1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

For al the general information about the 164.
HaydnW92
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:42 am

Thanks for the reply Alfisti-164.

I have the original alarm but the control box in the boot is turned to off at the moment, so I'm not sure if that's the problem but you never know. How would I bypass it? Is it a case of disconnecting it and jumping some wires?

I've been looking at my wiring diagrams this morning and I think I know what the problem is. The fuel pump relay receives power but the pump doesn't run with the ignition on. However, if I remove the relay and jump pins 30 and 87 the fuel pump runs and the engine starts up without any problems. So, it looks like pin 85 of the relay isn't receiving the signal from the Ecu via the red/black wire, thus the relay is receiving power but isn't able to create the contact between pins 30 and 87.






Image
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

HaydnW92
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:35 pm

I took the car for an MOT and it failed on a few things, some of which I already knew about and a couple of things that I didn't. Nothing major really. The big problem was that the engine has a problem. Each time I have started it up the engine has sounded a bit rough, but I was hoping this was just because it has sat for a long time with old oil. The oil pressure looked OK. I changed the oil and filter last week, the old oil didn't look too bad and there weren't any large pieces of metal in it.

Today I drove the car for the first time and it's really down on power. The garage called me up to say that during the emissions test, when they run the engine under load for a while, the engine was definitley knocking. So, I need to either replace my engine or repair it. To be honest, I'd prefer to replace it.

Does anybody have any ideas where the best place to buy an engine might be? It would be really nice to buy a 3.5L 24v...but that would be really hard to find. I guess a second hand modified engine might have its own problems too.
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

HaydnW92
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Sat May 23, 2020 4:27 pm

Perhaps someone can tell me whether I can swap the bottom end from a 3.0 166 or GTV into my 164?
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

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Alfan
Q4 owner
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by Alfan » Sat May 23, 2020 5:53 pm

That is a shame, since it hasn't driven that much. I don't know if they are the same, but I would expect at least an early 916 GTV to be. It should be possible to find the eper parts numbers for this.

Btw. you got it started and am able to drive it! Did I miss what you did to get to that point?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 185kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 95kkm

HaydnW92
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Sat May 23, 2020 7:53 pm

Yeah I was surprised to be honest. The car has only covered 88k, but I guess a few different things could have happened to the internals over time. Eper part numbers - that's a good idea, thanks.

Ideally I will find a suitable block with crank/pistons etc and fit my heads to it. If I do that, it might be nice to have the heads skimmed and maybe some ported too, now is the best time to consider this type of work. I've considered aftermarket cams too... and maybe fitting a 6 speed gearbox from a 166 or GTV... But the cost of this little project will shoot upwards if I do all of that!

I didn't update this thread, so you haven't really missed anything 🙂 but I was right with the information and diagram that I posted before. The ECU wasn't earthing one of the pins on the fuel pump relay, so the relay was receiving power but wasn't activating the fuel pump. I looked for a replacement ECU first but I could only find one for something like £350 in Germany. Which isn't a bad price really, but the other solution was to install a permanent earth on the relay pin (which was free!). So the fuel pump works with the ignition on and I can drive the car.
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

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Raphael164Super24V
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by Raphael164Super24V » Sun May 24, 2020 12:27 pm

If you plan to buy a 166 engine, gtv ect... you should know that the engine block of newer engines (166,gtv ect) are not compatible with 164 heads, as well as the heads of newer engines are not compatible with block 164. Because the oil pump system is very different between these two generations of engine.

However, internal components ( crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons, cylinders ) are compatible without any problems.
Alfa 164 Super 3.2 24V 1993
Alfa 164 Super 3.0 24 1995
Alfa GTV6 2.5
Alfa 33 1.7 QV

HaydnW92
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Sun May 24, 2020 3:06 pm

That's great info, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

I'm considering rebuilding my engine and perhaps making some small improvements along the way. Cylinder head porting + skim for example. The only problem is that I don't have a workshop to work in, which isn't ideal for that sort of work really.
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

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Raphael164Super24V
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by Raphael164Super24V » Sun May 24, 2020 6:53 pm

Indeed, working under cover is preferable for a rebuild. or at least have something above you to avoid trouble :roll:

Motor assembly is really not complicated, especially if you install the motor on a support provided for this purpose. This type of support is not expensive and this will allow you to easily turn the motor in all directions.

Image

Finding a 164 engine must indeed be mission impossible. However, the 3.0 166 engines are fairly widespread and therefore easier to find. You can also use the components of a 3.2 engine, Stephan of squadra tuning pocède the ecu adjustment for this specificity, you will have a pleasant 265/270hp :twisted:

You should know that the most important point of an engine is its balancing, so you just have to locate the location of each piston and connecting rod of the new engine and install them in the same place in block 164. Balancing the crankshaft and the flywheel and also essential, you will need to identify the position of the flywheel 166 relative to the crankshaft before uncoupling it from the crankshaft in order to put it back in the same position in block 164.

The flywheel of a 166 engine is bi-mass, so a clutch for 166 3.0 should be used.

The crankshafts of the new engines (166, gtv, gt, gta ect) installs without problem on the old block 164, you will simply have to recover the small pulley of the oil pump drive of the new engine and the install it on the crankshaft, the front seal of the crankshaft simply place on it, I attach some pictures of the assembly.

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I hope this information will help you and do not hesitate if you have specific questions on engine rebuild.
Alfa 164 Super 3.2 24V 1993
Alfa 164 Super 3.0 24 1995
Alfa GTV6 2.5
Alfa 33 1.7 QV

HaydnW92
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Sun May 24, 2020 8:06 pm

Wow, that's a really helpful post! Thank you!
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

HaydnW92
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Sun May 24, 2020 8:34 pm

I assume a 164 3.0 Super engine would work just fine, if I swap the external bits from my QV over? Am I right in saying that the engine in the Super is the same as the QV, the only differences are the intake runners and base plates? I know that with the earlier Qv with the 12v engine, there were internal differences when compared to a 'normal' 3.0 12v. Cams, compression, etc.
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

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Raphael164Super24V
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by Raphael164Super24V » Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 am

Yes the 3.0 24v engine of a 164 Super and 164 qv 24v are identical, effectively, there are only the intake runners which are different (39mm for the Super and 45mm for the qv) the two base plates are also identical. you will therefore have only the intake runners of your qv to install on the 164 super engine.
Alfa 164 Super 3.2 24V 1993
Alfa 164 Super 3.0 24 1995
Alfa GTV6 2.5
Alfa 33 1.7 QV

HaydnW92
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Mon May 25, 2020 8:08 am

Perfect, thanks for your help.
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

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Raphael164Super24V
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by Raphael164Super24V » Mon May 25, 2020 8:44 am

No problem :) Good luck with your research
Alfa 164 Super 3.2 24V 1993
Alfa 164 Super 3.0 24 1995
Alfa GTV6 2.5
Alfa 33 1.7 QV

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obenhaus
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by obenhaus » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:58 am

Maybe this offering suits for your needs? https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... 1-223-1309
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477 - stored
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

HaydnW92
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Re: 1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

Post by HaydnW92 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:40 pm

Thanks for the link but today I took delivery of my replacement (used) engine. So the project can progress once again!
1999 Alfa GTV 3.0 V6 24V
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)

(Ex)1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
(Ex) 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
(Ex) 1995 Alfa 145 1.6 8V

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