164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

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AlfaWhiz
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164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Tue May 06, 2014 10:35 am

I was wondering what is the "proper" remote for my 164 Q4. Recently I started to do a bit of research into reconditioning my set of keys, as they are a bit worn out, and I discovered there are different types of remotes for the alarm/central locking option.

I know the main key differed through the years; I have the black version with the key LED light (so not the newer red key type).

The question now is, to my key, shoud I have the alarm/central locking remote which looks exactly as the key case (but without the key sticking out), or is it possible that I could have another type of remote?

I got two remotes with the car, both of them the same, rectangular, with one red and one black button for closing/opening the car. They have a small rubber band to connect to the key chain instead of the standard piece.

Are you familiar with those, or are my remotes not of the original type?

Should I consider obtaining an original remote (the key-lookalike type) and reprogramming it to fit my car? Is it even possible?

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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by Alfan » Tue May 06, 2014 7:50 pm

I will see if I can find a photo of mine. It has never worked while I have owned the car, so if it is original or not, I don't know. It is dark grey and nothing shown on the buttons.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Wed May 07, 2014 7:40 am

Thanks Alfan, I will try to take some photos of mine as well, I forgot to do it yesterday.

The one I think is original looks like this:

Image

EPER seems to confirm, but lists 5 variations with unclear notes about the changes:

60575206 C0997
60611127 D0997
60611127 C0998
60611768 D0998
60611768

I don't have a big problem with using an aftermarket system (or maybe I do, just don't want to admit it :mrgreen: ), but for a purist original remote in working condition is necessary, even if I wouldn't use it every day.

Also, is the main key always only with the LED light, or was this button used as an alarm remote at some point? It seems strange they had the button in place, and yet they have used a separate remote casing, which looks exactly the same as the main key (first gen).

I'll be back with some photos.

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Thu May 08, 2014 9:53 am

OK, so here's how my remote looks like. The system itself is Autonix CA14R, thankfully I have the original manual to confirm it. It is connected with the car immobiliser, alarm and central locking, i.e. you need to start the car within 20 seconds of unlocking it, or the immobiliser will be activated again, in which case you have to press the unlock/open button (black) once more.

I have all the original bits in the boot of the car (siren, etc.) and the infrared receiver is also factory and working with those remotes, therefore I presumed this system is also original (for sure it's from the period). Please correct me if I'm wrong; I have some doubts now and I'd like to have my car all original in the end.

Here are some pictures:

Image
Image

To add to this, my keys look like this:

EDIT: I've removed the detailed photo of the keys, as it's a public forum.

The picture does not show the main key, which is in the shape of the remote fob from the previous post. So three keys in total, one main one (square/rounded with a button to operate the key light I think), onne small black key and one small grey key (one of those might have been added later, not sure about that). There is also a small tag with a number on it, perhaps for the alarm system.

Maybe we can figure out if this is a correct setup for a 1994 model.

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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by Helli » Thu May 08, 2014 11:32 am

Let me try to clarify this issue a bit.

Mine is a Q4, build in March 1994 and delivered in Germany.
(This might have some influence because the "reaction" of alarm systems is regulated by national laws).

The system, which we talk about has the functions
- ignition (K only)
- central locking (K or CR)
- car immobilization (CR only)
- alarm system (CR only)

It is operated by a key (K) and a remote control (RC)

(1) Keys
The 1994 cars were delivered with 2 types of keys.
Image
Left is the main key (black color)
It comes with a little tag containing a code, which is (was) required for reproduction of this key.

Right is a "garage"-key (grey color), with reduced function. It operations only the door-locks and the ignition.

The main key has a button, a battery and a LED.
This has nothing to do with immobilization nor alarm.

Image
The function of the key is only ignition and central locking
(One can also disable/enable the alarm siren with the key)

(2) Remote Control
The imobilisation/alarm system and also the central locking is operated by a small square box, the remote control.
It is a infra red transmitter, sending a code (unique to each transmitter) to the receiver in the overhead illumination assembly.
Image
The transmitter is powered by a small battery.
A transmission is started by pressing the central button.
When transmitting, a red LED is lighted.
Image

Any receiver can be programmed with several different codes (I have 3 keys and 3 remote controls).
---------------------------------------------------------
I guess, at it's time this system was quite sophisticated, but for a user without experience of this car the operation can be a headache and an embarrassment. The latter prompted me to switch the alarm siren off.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Thu May 08, 2014 11:50 am

Thank you for an in-depth explanation Helli. This is very useful, especially to know that the immobiliser is operated by the remote only (i.e. there is no transponder in the key).

The conclusion hereby is, that the remote in my car is an aftermarket or market specific solution (the car was originally Belgian), most likely the former one.

Now here's another question: is it possible to program another remote (RC), say from another car, to work with my alarm system, so that I would have an original remote? I don't have the 4-digit pin needed to unblock the receiver; I just have the code for the key.

My worry is also that now my remotes operate the car using two keys, which probably means there are two separate signals for locking and unlocking. How this would be handled with only one key on the remote (plus the 20 second time to start the car) I do not know. Would I have to lock and unlock the car again afterwards to disable the immobiliser? I wonder. That's why I still feel tempted to think it's some kind of gimmick for the Belgian market.

What would be a possible way to get one or two original remotes to work with the car in this case?

Also, due to empty batteries I have switched the siren in my car off as well. I can imagine it can be embarrassing at times.

Were there any variations to the remotes over the years (besides the main key being replaced by the red one)? I assume the red one already has a transponder and works with Alfa CODE, which is yet another matter in the later cars.

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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by Helli » Thu May 08, 2014 12:21 pm

I cannot comment on the red key nor on your (Belgian) Remote Control.

I bought two of my RCs in 2012. Maybe they are still available this year.

The RC has the part number 60611768.
The corresponding overhead unit has the part number 60612394.

If your receiver /light unit is of this type, then any remote control specified above can be used.
When you buy one,it comes with it's unique code.
Programming the receiver is easy.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Thu May 08, 2014 12:37 pm

May I ask where did you get the 60611768 RCs from? Was it directly available from Alfa, or from some other seller? I would definitely like to get them.

Is it then enough to exchange the overhead receiver (to get the code for it) and buy some new RCs to have the system fully functional again?

EDIT: I've checked with ePER, the parts you mentioned are indeed compatible with my car (by VIN number). The RC should cost about 70 EUR, while the receiver is quite expensive, at around 350 EUR. I'll submit an inquiry with Tuynder, and maybe also ask my local Alfa dealer.

EDIT: 60611768 RC is still available, € 85,59 plus 21% VAT. Now I just need to know if I can program it to my receiver if I don't have the 4-digit code? Or do I need to buy a new receiver (60612394 also available, € 330,69 plus 21% VAT)?

EDIT: I think I understand more now. I think I can program the new RC with it's code (the code should come with the new RC), by pressing the small button in the receiver and inputting the RC's code into the receiver. The only problem I have is when my receiver will be "locked out". Then I need to use the special code which I do not have. This is at least what the service procedure says, if I understand it correctly. Am I correct? Is there any other way to reset a locked receiver, without the code, if it happens?

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by Helli » Thu May 08, 2014 6:39 pm

It is not so complicated as you think :D

First, I bought the RCs directly from an Alfa dealer (via the EPER-code number).

Second, it is the RC which has a code, not the (expensive) receiver.
And it is the receiver, which has to be programmed with the RC-codes, not vice versa.

I think, for you it is mandatory to find out, whether your "front dome light" (see picture below) is the original one with the part number which I told you. This would mean, that you only have to buy one or several Remote Controls. The important part is of course the infra red receiver unit in the dome, which must be compatible with the Remote Control.

Image
Front view

Image
Rear view

Image
Inscriptions

When you buy a Remote Control, you will get it's code and probabely an instruction how to program the receiver with this code.

I know, that I have that instruction somewhere in my files.
If you want it before buying, I will search for it.

The "front dome unit" shown in the picture is the original 1994-unit of my Q4. It is functional. I replaced it by a new one two years ago, because - erroneously - I thought that I needed a new one.
Now it is my spare unit.
You can have it, if you want it.

All you would need are new Remote Controls.

Think it over :D
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by Helli » Thu May 08, 2014 6:49 pm

see also the following thread in this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=974
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Fri May 09, 2014 8:43 am

Again many thanks for the detailed info. I believe I have the original receiver, just the remotes are different.

Still no clue why they have two buttons (separate signal for locking and unlocking), when the original system has only one. I wonder how it will work with the original remote.

The confusion comes from the two service bulletins: http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/b409502.htm and http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/b409501.htm as they show the procedure of manually programming the remotes by soldiering, and the other one mentions the memory "lock-out" function of the receiver, for which you need a special code to unlock the receiver before entering the remote codes (which I don't have).

I hope my receiver does not have this "lock-out" function, as it's a 1994 model. In case it has one, I've seen that there are people who can retrieve the code from a disassembled receiver somehow, and/or reset it to a "factory/new" state, which would be a solution.

I will order one new remote to test and see if I can couple it with my receiver.

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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by Helli » Fri May 09, 2014 2:08 pm

good luck :D
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

GialloEvo94
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by GialloEvo94 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:47 am

mike.foxtrot wrote:I hope my receiver does not have this "lock-out" function, as it's a 1994 model. In case it has one, I've seen that there are people who can retrieve the code from a disassembled receiver somehow, and/or reset it to a "factory/new" state, which would be a solution.

I will order one new remote to test and see if I can couple it with my receiver.
I'm a bit late to the party but if your receiver is locked which it almost certainly is then I can either get the required codes for you or reset the receiver back to a factory state. The parts I would need is the green electronic circuit from inside the roof light centre console as shown below (you just need to nip off the 4 plastic rivet weld blobs holding it on and it then unclips and comes out), and any remotes that you want working with the receiver.

If you need this doing, just drop me a PM or email. I'm well known on the Alfa 145 / 146 forum with the same username, and the 164 receiver is based on the same electronic architecture as the setup as described in this post.

Image

Image

perry
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by perry » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:15 pm

I've been reading this and wondered if you had got it sorted.
I think the setting is straight forward but wont say any more .
I too have this original set up.
You may find or have found that the original system was faulty or problematic and has been replaced for a different after market one.

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by AlfaWhiz » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:00 pm

I was quite busy lately, didn't have much time for a reply, so here it is after a while.

The system in my car is actually an another system. I am reasonably convinced it was installed at the dealership or as an option very early (if not at the very beginning) of the car's life, as the system is period-correct and mounted properly, utilising the original car components (cabling, siren inc. the off-key, dashboard light, etc.).

I have managed to track down the company and maybe I'll be able to get myself a new case (or two) for my remote.

Anyways, thanks for your offering, if my system would be the standard one, I would probably go for it. :)

quadrifoglioquattro
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Re: 164 Q4 alarm/central locking remote

Post by quadrifoglioquattro » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:58 pm

Ciao,

I know this topic is quite old, but recently I've been trying to program a new (second RC), unfortunately my receiver is locked and I don't have the code

Do You know who can "read" the code from the circuit?

Thanks
Victor
Ciao from Italy,
quadrifoglioquattro

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