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Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:31 am

If anyone knows where I can find a pair of Q4 rear springs, please let me know.
In fact, if anyone knows/has a pair of Q4 rear lowering springs, that would be even better. I know they exist, though have been out of production for a while. I also know a fresh batch was made a few years ago, but there probably aren't any of those left either.

I did find these standard springs, which seem to be the right part number - no picture or information though. Price seems good if they are the Q4 springs?
http://www.online-teile.com/alfaromeo-e ... 99546d784a

Thanks!
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:45 am

I seem to be replying to all my own posts here, every time I finish one post I find something else to add! Anyway; good news this morning. I went out to have a quick look at the gear linkage, when I found the following problem (it's not difficult to spot in the background):
Image

I poked a screwdriver through where the bolt should sit and now the gears feel so much better - they all engage with a nice feeling and are where they should be in terms of gear lever travel. That is, apart from 5th gear, which I still cannot engage, but that is a problem for another day.

Haydn
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:57 am

Well, progress is good and you made a very useful video :)

I don't really have any input for the 5th gear problem, but maybe it is required that you have someone switch the gears, while you look at the linkage outside, to see if anything is blocking movement, compared to the other gears?
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:56 pm

Thanks! It took me a few hours to make that video, the next day it took me 5 minutes to solve the problem... :roll:

That seems the next logical step anyway, I certainly can't see anything physically blocking the rod or the linkage but you never know. A gearbox oil change might even fix it.

Anyway, here's a quick update for everyone for the Q4:
-My replacement rear springs have arrived, and they look right to me so fingers crossed.
-New dust boots and bump stops on the way.
-Rear slotted discs are still out there somewhere, rear pads are due in the next few days.
-I have removed the front bumper, stripped it, sanded and now it has the first coat of primer.
-I painted and fitted the replacement left wing mirror. My electric mirrors work!
-Removed the LPG tank and bits of pipe from the boot (which was very heavy) and refitted my boot carpets. Unfortunately I think I need a new set of carpets as all mine have been ripped out at some point :?
-Refitted the belt covers
-Fitted a spare used idle valve
-A few other odd jobs.

Oh by the way Alfan (I completely forgot about this)... do you still have that Zender spoiler? And are you still willing to part with it? No problem if not, I just remembered yesterday when clearing out the boot :)

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:48 am

Where did you get the rear springs from?? Sources for acquiring 164 (and especially Q4) parts are much welcome :D

I still have the spoiler, haven't been to the garage for a while, as I have been driving both the Lancia and 4C. I need to figure out how to dismantle it without breaking stuff, but as no one else asked for it, you are first in line for it :)
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:31 pm

Hi Alfan,

Of course I don't mind sharing my sources :) I got the pair from the following website after lots of searching:
https://www.autosklep24.pl/pl/p/Sprezyn ... rrency=GBP

I ordered the last two in stock, hopefully they will have some more soon. They were dispatched within a couple of days and look identical to my Q4's current springs so I'm happy to say they're the right part.

Regarding the spoiler, thanks very much :) If it's anything like the 'standard' spoiler there should be a couple of small nuts on the inside of the bootlid, behind the felt lining. I can't remember if there's one or two on each side though. The spoiler might also be stuck on with some kind of sealant, but if you're careful with a flat blade it should be easy enough to cut through it.

Today's progress on the Q4: Among other jobs, today I removed the left side rear shock absorber. Unfortunately, I think I've found yet another problem - I think the rear shock absorbers might need to be replaced. I removed the top mount and spring from the shock absorber. I then pushed the rod into the shock housing, which required significant force, but the shock rebounded very very slowly - I thought it was supposed to rebound almost immediately? So I think there's a problem, unless I have misunderstood and the shock is actually OK (please someone tell me this is the case... Bertelsbeck have Q4 rear shocks for 600 euros EACH...).

I also removed the starter motor from the Maserati, which will be sent to be rebuilt. I took a few other parts off to expose the timing arrangement at the front of the engine, so I thinWhen I fit the refurbished starter, I will refit everything else and see if she will fire up :) In case anyone is interested.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby alfa east » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:05 pm

Read all with interest. Also the Biturbo-bit. Plse keep it coming!
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:28 am

My rear discs arrived on Tuesday morning so all 4 discs are now fitted with new pads. I've not started bleeding them yet, but I expect to find a couple of leaks here and there. My rear springs arrived too - I've replaced the cracked spring and fitted a new bump stop and dust boot to the shock absorber. I was going to perform the same tasks on the other rear shock absorber, however I decided to send the other new rear spring to a company that specialises in manufacturing bespoke springs, who will hopefully test it and then make me a set of lowering springs.

I have (of course!) encountered another new problem. I need a new rod for the left rear suspension, part number 60598996. Ideally I would replace the track rod end rather than the whole rod, but I can only find a part number for the whole rod. Does anybody have any suggestions? It's item no.1 in the following diagram:
Image

Thanks,
Haydn
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:25 pm

I assume that the springs you got are the correct ones for a Q4 then?

Try and search for rear suspension or bushings on this site, maybe you can find some details about this specific part.

I have tried taking off the Zender wing of my extra Q4, but it is not going to be easy. I think there is a big risk that the paint will start chipping off - but first I need to get all the screws on it lose...
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:14 pm

Hi Alfan,
Well they have the right part numbers and are visibly (and dimensionally) identical to the 'old' springs that were on the car, so I think they are indeed the correct springs.

I've been in touch with a chap in Germany about buying a set of parts, among them is the one item I need, but he is away for the next couple of weeks so the car will be further delayed (not really a problem).

Aa for the spoiler, I'll have to respray it anyway so I'm not too concerned about paint damage (if that makes things easier for you). The screws should be OK, but if it's sealed to the bootlid that could be tricky.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:58 pm

More progress: after fixing some wiring all my exterior lights/signals now work. Though one of the front fog lights sometimes needs a quick 'wiggle' of the connection to get it to work, so this probably just needs cleaning.

I've removed the catalysers, both of which had long cracks right along the top of them. On one of them the insides were ruined. Instead of fitting new catalysers I have made a pair of de-cat pipes which I will fit this weekend (hopefully). I didn't see the point in buying new cats as I plan to have a full stainless system made in the future anyway, so at least the de-cat pipes will help to get the car on the road.

My rear springs are being manufactured, I'm expecting them around mid-august. I've welded the rear jacking point, which ended up taking most of the day :roll: and I've started to bleed my new brakes. Unfortunately I have a brake pipe that is leaking badly, it is the right rear pipe that connects the flexible hose from the caliper to the compensator. The pipe looks like it travels over the top of the fuel tank and the viscomatic unit before reaching the compensator which sits just next to the rear left wheel. So this could be very tricky to replace, I really don't want to have to remove the fuel tank and viscomatic... :( but I suppose that is the correct way to do this job. Does anyone have any tips for this?

I've also removed most of the remaining wiring and other components associated with the LPG system. Many of them had already been cut and/or were not connected. So now I can actually see the car's ABS unit and clutch slave, rather than a sea of black wires :D

Edited to add: I forgot to update on the Maserati too. I fitted a new starter motor and the engine now turns over just fine :) So at least I diagnosed that problem correctly! I need to replace the timing belt, tensioner and water pump and then it will be time to see if she'll fire up. I'll try to record a video of this as and when it happens. It could be a while though as I'm currently 100% focused on the Q4.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:47 am

HaydnW92 wrote:My rear springs are being manufactured, I'm expecting them around mid-august. I've welded the rear jacking point, which ended up taking most of the day :roll: and I've started to bleed my new brakes. Unfortunately I have a brake pipe that is leaking badly, it is the right rear pipe that connects the flexible hose from the caliper to the compensator. The pipe looks like it travels over the top of the fuel tank and the viscomatic unit before reaching the compensator which sits just next to the rear left wheel. So this could be very tricky to replace, I really don't want to have to remove the fuel tank and viscomatic... :( but I suppose that is the correct way to do this job. Does anyone have any tips for this?


I don't think there is any other way, but maybe someone here have been able to do it, without lowering all the parts, which definitely is a major task!

HaydnW92 wrote:I've also removed most of the remaining wiring and other components associated with the LPG system. Many of them had already been cut and/or were not connected. So now I can actually see the car's ABS unit and clutch slave, rather than a sea of black wires :D


Now that you can get to the ABS unit, it could be worth while to check if the ABS pump motor works (applying 12V directly to it). This unit is not easy to find...

HaydnW92 wrote:Edited to add: I forgot to update on the Maserati too. I fitted a new starter motor and the engine now turns over just fine :) So at least I diagnosed that problem correctly! I need to replace the timing belt, tensioner and water pump and then it will be time to see if she'll fire up. I'll try to record a video of this as and when it happens. It could be a while though as I'm currently 100% focused on the Q4.


Always nice to know that the engine can turn over :)
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:57 am

Well I replaced the pipe without removing the fuel tank, viscomatic unit, etc. I ran the replacement pipe along the underside of the fuel tank, tucked neatly out of the way. The brakes feel good, there's no fluid leaking (that I can see) so I think the brakes are sorted for now.

I think I only have two more jobs left after fixing the windscreen washers yesterday; I need to re-attach the front number plate, and fix a starting issue the car has. I think it's a bad earth somewhere, if I try to start the car the starter just clicks, the engine doesn't turn over. The battery voltage shows just over 12V so not perfect but it's started just fine several times previously with 12V, so I don't think battery charge is the problem. The problem comes and goes, the car did it last week and it seemed to fix itself, but now its back again! :?

Anyway, if I can solve this problem the car will be ready for an MOT. Can somebody shed some light on the brake test problems that I've heard about? I've been told that the Q4 needs a different brake test to a 'regular' car as otherwise the machine can damaged the viscomatic unit. I'd appreciate it if somebody can elaborate on this for me.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:28 am

HaydnW92 wrote:Well I replaced the pipe without removing the fuel tank, viscomatic unit, etc. I ran the replacement pipe along the underside of the fuel tank, tucked neatly out of the way. The brakes feel good, there's no fluid leaking (that I can see) so I think the brakes are sorted for now.

Sounds like a good solution :)

HaydnW92 wrote:I think I only have two more jobs left after fixing the windscreen washers yesterday; I need to re-attach the front number plate, and fix a starting issue the car has. I think it's a bad earth somewhere, if I try to start the car the starter just clicks, the engine doesn't turn over. The battery voltage shows just over 12V so not perfect but it's started just fine several times previously with 12V, so I don't think battery charge is the problem. The problem comes and goes, the car did it last week and it seemed to fix itself, but now its back again! :?

Is that the battery voltage without load? I would make sure that the battery is fully charged - maybe it is, but I cannot read that from your text.

HaydnW92 wrote:Anyway, if I can solve this problem the car will be ready for an MOT. Can somebody shed some light on the brake test problems that I've heard about? I've been told that the Q4 needs a different brake test to a 'regular' car as otherwise the machine can damaged the viscomatic unit. I'd appreciate it if somebody can elaborate on this for me.

Simple - they are only allowed to test the brakes when driving the car!! It requires a very special brake stand for this, that I have never come across.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:52 am

Thanks for the replies Alfan.

So basically, the car cannot be tested at all on the garage's brake testing equipment? I assume the handbrake will be ok for them to test with their machine? I'm just wondering how to word this when I tell the garage about it, to make them listen and pay attention to what I've said. The last thing I want is a broken viscomatic!

As for the battery, it wasn't fully charged at the time but it has been on charge since 4pm yesterday, so I'll see what happens when I try again later.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:42 pm

HaydnW92 wrote:Thanks for the replies Alfan.

So basically, the car cannot be tested at all on the garage's brake testing equipment? I assume the handbrake will be ok for them to test with their machine? I'm just wondering how to word this when I tell the garage about it, to make them listen and pay attention to what I've said. The last thing I want is a broken viscomatic!

I will repeat myself :)

Simple - they are only allowed to test the brakes when driving the car!! It requires a very special brake stand for this, that I have never come across.

If they dismiss you, start telling them about the 4WD system and how expensive it will be for them, if they f... up...
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:46 pm

OK, that sounds good enough to me! I thought you were going to come back with a long response full of technical terms... :lol:
I guess I'll have to leave it with them and hope they listen.
Hopefully I'll be able to take the Q4 to the garage in the next couple of weeks. I'll post what happens in this thread of course.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:44 pm

I could use some guidance to help me solve the latest issue.

The car won't start. The battery is fully charged, everything is normal when I turn the key to the first position (everything lights up as normal). However, when I turn the key to the start position there's a loud 'click' and nothing happens. The lights on the dashboard don't dim, and the starter doesn't even being to turn. I've checked as many of the fuses and relays as I can and so far have found no problems. Today I found what I assume is the starter relay underneath the dashboard behind the ignition switch. This relay clicks when I turn the key to the start position. However the relay seems to be fine, I swapped it out for a similar relay which made no difference. So if this is the starter relay, it seems to receive power OK, which suggests the problem lies somewhere between this relay and the starter motor. Does anyone have any guesses?

At first I assumed a fuse had blown somewhere because the day before the non-starting issue appeared, I had attached a 12V supply directly to the headlight washer pump to see if it worked, which it did, but not without producing quite a few sparks. I should add that the pump was still attached to the plastic reservoir when I tested it but I had disconnected the connector that plugs into the top of it, so I'm not really sure how this could have caused and problems with the car. It's all I can think of though.

Help appreciated!

Edited to add: The car doesn't have an immobiliser.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:22 pm

I continued investigating my starter problem today before I go to work later on.

The factory troubleshooting suggests I need to replace the I10 starter impedence relay, however the relay appears to be fine. I swapped it out with an indentical relay from my father's 1994 164 QV, which made no difference at all. Just in case, I connected a wire across terminals 85 and 86 (bypassing the relay) and there was still no change, so I've ruled out the relay.

Next I jumped the terminals in the N45 alarm box in the boot (purple to purple-black) which bypasses the alarm box. This box can block the starter motor from working if the alarm system detects a fault. This did not make a difference either.

Next I tested the G151 connector behind the false firewall (which is where I should have started really, working backwards from the starter motor). I attached the multimeter to pin 1 on the battery side of the connector, which is for the starter solenoid, which gave a reading of 12.6V with the key in the 'start' position which means the starter solenoid should be receiving a healthy power supply. However I then attached a 12V power supply directly to pin 1 on the other side of the G151 connector (leading to the starter solenoid) which should have spun the starter...but didn't. So I think the problem must lie between the G151 connector and the starter itself, so I need to climb underneath the car and try to check the contacts on the starter motor, which I know will be a nightmare job!

I have noticed that there's a loose wire on the starter, it's a spade connector but I can only feel it (can't see it yet) so can't just tell where the other end goes or what colour the wire is. I can just reach it with my finger tips and it slides back and forth quite easily on the pin it connects to on the motor, which I assume it isn't supposed to? If I wiggle it and then turn the key to start, sometimes the starter makes a loud 'click' noise, and sometimes it's silent so this does suggest there's a bad connection.

The one thing I still don't understand though is why it's stopped working completely 'out of the blue'. It was working fine one day, and then doesn't work at all the next day...it's maddening :roll:
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:28 pm

HaydnW92 wrote:I have noticed that there's a loose wire on the starter, it's a spade connector but I can only feel it (can't see it yet) so can't just tell where the other end goes or what colour the wire is. I can just reach it with my finger tips and it slides back and forth quite easily on the pin it connects to on the motor, which I assume it isn't supposed to? If I wiggle it and then turn the key to start, sometimes the starter makes a loud 'click' noise, and sometimes it's silent so this does suggest there's a bad connection.

The one thing I still don't understand though is why it's stopped working completely 'out of the blue'. It was working fine one day, and then doesn't work at all the next day...it's maddening :roll:

Yes, sounds like a lose connection and since a lot of power is needed to get it started, that would be the place to look. Maybe when doing some of the other things, this was impacted...
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:59 am

I was praying that the starter motor itself was not the cause of the problem, as we all know what a pain it is to remove on these engines. However last Friday I decided that it had to be the motor that was faulty; according to my multimeter it had a good power supply, the I10 starter inhibitor relay works just fine, and applying 12V to pin 1 on the G151 connector doesn't turn the starter motor (which is a sure-fire test used to diagnose starter problems). So I reluctantly started removing the starter on Sunday afternoon. As of Monday evening, it was off! I estimate it took me (roughly) 12 hours of steady work. Not too bad for my first time. :D I had to remove the following parts; air box and intake sleeve, coolant reservoir, a couple of coolant hoses, intake plenum, false firewall, rear exhaust manifold, starter heatshield and (finally!) the starter itself. I also had to disconnect both of the downpipes from the manifolds to allow good access to the starter from underneath the car. I got held up by some rusty bolts in tricky places which is when my dremel tool was essential! A new starter is currently on its way.

I applied 12V directly to the starter once removed, and it didn't make a sound. Completely dead. It also appears to be a non-original exchange unit, I'm not sure of the brand but I've ordered a refurbished Bosch starter to replace it. So that's two starters replaced in 2 months...one Alfa, one Maserati. One was much more difficult than the other...

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:51 pm

Great job! Now you really learned how to work on a 164 :wink:
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:03 pm

I like to think so! All I have to do now is put it all back together...I'm not looking forward to bolting the starter back in place!
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:31 am

She lives again :D
That's a job I hope I never have to repeat!
I'm so so close to being able to drive the Q4 now. I'm currently trying to arrange to have an immobiliser fitted, which is a requirement of the insurance policy which I amended to cover the Q4 a couple of days ago. So she's now insured, once the immobiliser is fitted I'll be able to book an MOT which means I can drive her on the road...only to the garage and back of course!

My dad and I have both had a quick drive of the Q4 on a private bit of road next to the house. Three things have become apparent; either the brake servo or master cylinder will soon need replacing, the clutch will also need to be replaced soon(ish) and the steering wheel isn't on straight. However, she starts, idles and drives just fine, brakes really well and doesn't make any worrying noises. All the dials seem to show 'good' readings though the oil pressure is a little lower than I remember - roughly 2 to 2.5 bar at cold idle, which drops to 1 when warm. It rises to 4 when driving though so I think it's OK. I also can't tell if the 4wd is functioning, which isn't helped by the fact that I'm used to Fwd. Though when I had the car raised off the ground a few weeks ago with the gearbox in first and the engine running, the front wheels were turning and so was the propshaft, but the rear wheels weren't - I thought the 4wd was permanent? All the exterior lights work too.

More updates to come.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:33 am

Oh - I also sold my 164 Cloverleaf. I hated watching it drive away :( so the Q4 will have to cheer me up!
1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)
HaydnW92
 
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Location: United Kingdom
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

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