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Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:05 pm

That is looking good :D

I am sure it was a pleasure driving it that little bit - and reducing the impact of letting the QV go...

Unless you lose grip, the Q4 is FWD, when you start to lose grip, it will distribute up to 100% to the rear and use the ABS for each wheel if needed. This is also why brake testing should be done on the road for the MOT ;)

Replacing the clutch.... that is app. 11 hours according to the workshop manual...!
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:25 pm

It was, it's so different to my QV. You can certainly feel the weight difference, though in my opinion this also makes the car feel more 'planted' and 'firm' if you see what I mean. I like it! Unfortunately neither of us had a chance to test the car's acceleration, but it sounds good. :)

Ah thank you, that's a very helpful yet simple description. So my Q4 is probably fine then. I shall tell the garage those exact words when I take the car in, and leave a note in the car for them just to be sure.

As for the clutch, I know it'll be a big job so I'll leave it until there's a few other jobs that need doing. In fact, in terms of access it probably makes sense to replace the clutch and the brake servo/master cylinder at the same time. Who knows, the clutch might just need to be bled again - that would be a much simpler fix. But as I'm sure you'll agree, with these cars nothing is ever a simple fix. :roll:
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby alfa east » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:49 am

Congrats on the test drive. I admire your perseverance; let's hope it's not the clutch that needs replacing.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby AlfaWhiz » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:44 am

Cograts, big step forward. :)

Brake servo and master cylinder are definitely possible without too much hassle (overflow tank, etc.). The clutch on the other hand is obviously much more complicated.

I have to replace the starter motor in mine... Is it possible to do it from the top only, or did you have to have some access from the bottom as well? I have only jack stands at hand at the moment unfortunately. Any tips would be welcome. ;)

As for the 4WD, I wouldn't be too worried about the rear wheels not moving while in the air, although my first thought is that they should. Maybe the speed was just too low, Viscomatic is pretty smart and takes a lot of parameters into consideration, unlike some of the other ehem... less sophisticated ehem... crude systems from certain ehem... German manufacturers. :mrgreen:
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:09 am

alfa east wrote:Congrats on the test drive. I admire your perseverance; let's hope it's not the clutch that needs replacing.

Thanks :) I think the clutch will last for a while but will inevitably need changing in the next year or so. I don't really mind, so long as I get to drive the car first!

AlfaWhiz wrote:Cograts, big step forward. :)

Brake servo and master cylinder are definitely possible without too much hassle (overflow tank, etc.). The clutch on the other hand is obviously much more complicated.

I have to replace the starter motor in mine... Is it possible to do it from the top only, or did you have to have some access from the bottom as well? I have only jack stands at hand at the moment unfortunately. Any tips would be welcome. ;)

As for the 4WD, I wouldn't be too worried about the rear wheels not moving while in the air, although my first thought is that they should. Maybe the speed was just too low, Viscomatic is pretty smart and takes a lot of parameters into consideration, unlike some of the other ehem... less sophisticated ehem... crude systems from certain ehem... German manufacturers. :mrgreen:

Thank you!
Indeed, I had good access to the servo and master cylinder while changing the starter, I wish I had known to replace them at the time but never mind. They should be OK for a while, my only concern is the noise the brake medal makes when driving...it doesn't sound very happy. I've changed the clutch before on my old 164 QV but I suspect the Q4 is a bit more complicated with the Getrag gearbox.

As for the starter motor, I'm more than happy to provide some tips. I found the easiest way to work was with the car raised up such that you can get underneath it and on top of it (as in, access the back of the engine bay) at the same time. This is because you'll probably end up switching regularly between work underneath the car and in the engine bay. So I raised the front of my Q4 so it rested on some concrete blocks underneath each of the front wheels, which gave good access to the underside but I could still reach the back of the engine (though it wasn't very comfortable leaning over it!). Here is a basic list of what I removed/how I replaced the starter (you may do it differently of course):

>Disconnect the battery and remove the airbox, large intake sleeve and intake plenum.
>Remove the coolant reservoir and the false firewall (see the following link for firewall removal instructions http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168 ... moval.html). I would say that removing the firewall is essential, it makes the rear manifold bolts much easier to access.
>Disconnect both exhaust downpipes; do the longer one first to give better access to the nuts holding the rear downpipe to the rear manifold. The downpipes should push to one side quite easily after this (you'll need to remove the longer downpipe from the bracket attached to the gearbox to do this, it slides onto two pins and is held in place with two 13mm nuts).
>Disconnect the rear exhaust manifold - 6X 13mm nuts. I didn't quite have room to remove the manifold completely so I just disconnected it and pushed it to one side. It does get in the way a bit when you're installing the new starter but I worked around it. Perhaps you could make room to remove it if you loosened the engine mounts and tilt the engine forward slightly, but I couldn't be bothered doing that :D
>Disconnect brown/green wire that fits quite loosely to some kind of sensor on the back of the engine next to the oil filter, and the 2.5 black wire that sits on a small rectangular pin on the starter motor. Disconnect the other two thick black cables that sit on the starter motor (13mm nut I think).
>This is the fiddly bit; you can now remove the starter. I found the following method to work quite well. Undo the top starter bolt first, working from inside the engine bay. Use a ratchet with a long extension and a 13mm socket and try to slide it along the back of the engine towards the head of the bolt. Do this with one hand, and use your other hand (you can just reach with your finger tips) to guide the socket onto the head of the bolt. Then undo! The middle and lower bolts (3 in total) are much easier to get to. I disconnected the middle bolt from on top of the engine with a spanner as there's not much room to get a socket onto it. The lowest bolt is easy from underneath the car.
>You'll also need to remove two 13mm nuts on the other side of the starter motor (as in, the side facing the oil filter) because the starter motor has a bracket on it. I removed these nuts, wiggled the starter motor free and then had to remove the bracket from the starter motor (two 8mm nuts, one is difficult to get to) to give enough room to get the motor off.

Re-fitting is simply the reverse of the removal! Well, I say 'simply'... :lol: I hope those instructions made sense, I was due to leave the house while writing this so I've had to rush it slightly. I might have missed one or two things, so let me know if there's anything else you need to ask. Overall it's not a difficult job - just very fiddly. I am the world's least patient person and I hate fiddly jobs, so if I can do it so can you!

Thanks for the tips about the 4wd system too, much appreciated. As you say, perhaps it's because the car was only idling and therefore there was no speed involved. I still need to get my head round how the 4wd system works. :mrgreen:

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:45 am

I think I know the answer already, but is the Q4's instrument cluster specific to the Q4? As in, does it have slightly different warning lights (for the 4wd system, for example) that other 24V clusters do not have? I'm asking because it's just been pointed out to me that my Q4 has a UK-Spec cluster (mph not kph) which could explain why the 4wd system diagnostics light doesn't appear when starting the car.

Alternatively...does anyone know where I might find a Q4 instrument cluster?

Thanks!
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:54 am

I guess you have found the reason for it not lighting up, as I don't think the Q4 was sold in any markets using mph.

You can have a look in my photo album, where you can see all the lights in the Q4 instrument cluster. If you use a flash light on the instrument cluster in your car, you should be able to see the symbols.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:46 pm

Thanks Alfan, I had a look and tried the flashlight idea but I couldn't really see much. I think I've found a Q4 instrument cluster, I may double-check with the seller to make sure it's from a Q4 (and to ask if they will ship as it's in Italy) but hopefully it'll solve my problem.

While clearing out the Q4 today I decided to check over the fluids in the engine bay. While opening the bonnet, one of the hinges snapped...great timing, because the car is booked into the garage for an MOT in the morning! :evil:
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:59 pm

If you turn on ignition and see the lights coming on, you can compare to the photos in my album, that should give you an indication.

Bummer about the hinge, not uncommon, remember to lubricate them! I hope you didn't damage anything... And that you get it through the inspection :)
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby alfa164superwebmaster » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:23 am

Yep the cluster is Q4 specific. It had a kind of dampening/delay in the fuel level gauge, because of the complicated system with 3 level senders in the tank.

A "normal" cluster does however work in the q4, fuel level is just a little more "dynamic".
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:15 am

Alfan wrote:If you turn on ignition and see the lights coming on, you can compare to the photos in my album, that should give you an indication.

Bummer about the hinge, not uncommon, remember to lubricate them! I hope you didn't damage anything... And that you get it through the inspection :)

alfa164superwebmaster wrote:Yep the cluster is Q4 specific. It had a kind of dampening/delay in the fuel level gauge, because of the complicated system with 3 level senders in the tank.

A "normal" cluster does however work in the q4, fuel level is just a little more "dynamic".


I'll be sure to try that Alfan, with a torch I could barely make out any of the symbols for the warning lights.
Yup it was a case of really bad timing, before I sold my QV I had to replace one of the hinges on that car too! It seems like a very weak design, considering it holds a substantial amount of weight. I notice my father's QV, despite being the same year as my Q4, has a different (and stronger) hinge.

Thanks alfa164swm, I'll replace the instrument cluster over the winter if I get hold of a suitable replacement.

Well guys, my car was booked in for the MOT on the 6th of September but due to a communication breakdown I didn't hear anything until this morning, when I walked to the garage to see how things were going. It seems they had the wrong contact details for me, so I don't know who they were ringing but it wasn't me :lol:

Anyway, the car unfortunately failed the MOT for two reasons; lack of catalysers, and high exhaust emissions. I removed the cats previously as they were beyond repair, and replaced them with a couple of straight pipes because I thought that the rules for my Q4 were different and it therefore didn't need them to pass an MOT. However, I was wrong, and to be fair to the garage, they talked me through it and showed me the rules regarding emissions and build dates. So I'm now looking into having a couple of cats fitted. Even if the car didn't require cats to pass an MOT, I would still need to fit some as the emissions were quite high, so realistically I'm not too disappointed - at least the car didn't fail solely on a technicality in the rules.

So this is all a bit frustrating, as had I known this, I wouldn't have taken the time to make my own straight pipes and I could have fitted the cats instead! Look on the bright side though; these are the only things the car failed on, so had I fitted replacement cats instead of straight pipes the Q4 would have passed the MOT at the first attempt, after being off road and unused for 8 years. That would have been fantastic! Oh well. :)

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:49 pm

I think that is a good outcome (apart from not knowing the rules...) :)

I don't know which parts of the exhaust gases is the problem, but maybe the lambda probes are tired and not regulating. I can't recall if you tried connected with the diag SW, but that should tell you, if they regulate properly or not.

Also you haven't driven the car much, so maybe it really needs an Italian tune-up 8)
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:56 pm

Well Daryl (alfamuppet) has since messaged me with some information stating that my Q4 should in fact be tested as a non-Cat vehicle! So I don't know what to think really, for now it seems I need a pair of cats to reduce the emissions and pass the MOT but I may show this information to the garage to get their opinion for future reference.

As you suggest Alfan, I strong suspect that a good run out will reduce the emissions significantly. The lambda sensors are brand new so I doubt these are causing me problems.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:29 pm

Hi guys,

Well, my 164 is STILL at the garage, I don't know what's taking them so long but I've been up (in person) 3 times to see what progress they've made. I'm getting really frustrated now, I may use a different garage in future.

Anyway, while waiting to get my car back I've been sourcing a few other parts the car might need. One of these is the instrument cluster. I found this one on Italian eBay that claims to be for a Q4, however I've just looked again and I don't think it is; using Alfan's album pictures as a reference, the speedometer and tachometer are the wrong way round and the odometer display should be digital?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232079724339? ... EBIDX%3AIT

So I don't know where else I might find one. Any ideas anyone?
Alfan....does your spares car have one? :wink: Feel free to tell me to go away haha, I wouldn't blame you. If you want to keep it, I would understand completely! Also, please let me know how much you want for that Zender spoiler (if you still have it).

I have also found a steering wheel that I think will really suit the interior of the Q4. It's identical to the one in the link below. I was hoping to find one that looks almost factory, which I think this one does. I just can't stand the factory wheel; there's no colour to it or nice design touches :) What do you guys think?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Authentic-Rar ... SwzaJX3LVL

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby alfa164superwebmaster » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:26 pm

Do not go for a non-airbag steering wheel...

Any Alfa 166 steering wheel will work (GTV/Spider 916 also), and will retain function of the airbag.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:45 pm

Thank you for the advice.
I had considered the lost functionality of the airbag, but to be honest I don't think it's working in the first place. How would one tell without setting it off? When I bought the car it had a piece of tape over the Air bag warning light to cover up the fact that it was flashing constantly (which it still is - I haven't investigated this yet). The tape must have been put there by a previous owner, so we're talking at least 8 years ago.

Do you have any thoughts about what might be causing the Air Bag warning light to stay on?
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:03 pm

Since the odometer is not digital it cannot be correct.
I managed to get the rear wing of, will get back to you about that.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:07 pm

Yep, it seems that is the case. I'm not sure where I'll find an instrument cluster, certainly not in the UK. Of course, I have to get the car back from the garage first... :roll:

Thanks for that, just let me know.
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:29 pm

Why is the car still at the garage?

My spare Q4 did not have the instrument cluster :( But you can see photos of the rear wing here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bcnt5it693mh ... 38xCa?dl=0

The brake lights work :) The wing was glued on to the bootlid at all 4 mounting points, and attached with screws in the middle. The bootlid could not stay open with it on, now it is fine, you should be aware of that.

I would keep an airbag wheel, and it seems you have many options for that :)

You should connect the diagnostic sw to the airbag and read the error code - I can't remember if you already tried that...
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:39 pm

It isn't any more - I got it back today! It has passed its MOT!! I haven't been for a long drive yet as it's a very dark and rainy evening here in the UK, so I might go for a drive tomorrow. First stop: the petrol station. :D I was a bit surprised at the cost from the garage too, but at this stage I'm just happy to have the car back.

On the short drive home I did notice the car was making a few strange noises, one of which sounds like the alternator bearing. Another seems to happen when I bring the clutch up to the 'bite point' to engage drive, however I plan to replace the clutch anyway so this isn't a major concern just yet. She also cuts out sometimes when coming to a stop (say, at traffic lights) which I assume is a vacuum issue. So there's a few problems to look into.

Thanks for the photos of the rear wing, I don't think they are supposed to be glued on like that! You're right that the added weight will keep the boot from staying open, but with the current spoiler it doesn't stay open either so I don't really mind :lol: So I'd appreciate it if you could have a think and let me know how much you would like for the spoiler.

I don't think I've tried the diagnostics software with the airbag, I'll have a go at some point.

Haydn :)
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Artiz1 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:53 am

Hi Haydn,

Congrats on the MOT! :) How did the garage react when you told them about the brake test procedure?

Also, I have a few spare air bags for the later style 164 wheels. I kinda missed out a picture of your's - could you upload one to compare? Maybe I can be of a help for you ;)
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:50 am

Thanks Arthur :D

They seemed fine with it, I think they said they would test it on the road with a decelerometer.
I don't presently have a picture of my steering wheel, but it's the same as this one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/91-94-ALFA-RO ... SwaB5XnDbQ

Strangely, when I bought the car I found an airbag unit for another 164 steering wheel in the boot, but no wheel itself to go with it. The airbag is the one in the following link:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168 ... -momo.html

Which is quite nice.


So everyone, I've been out for some petrol this morning and there's a couple of issues that I would like to sort quite soon:
1) There's a loud scratchy/squeaky sound from the engine bay, which has to be a bearing. I'm almost certain it's the alternator bearing, and given the alternator shows to be providing around 11.5 volts when driving (it should be higher?) I think I'll just replace it.
2) The clutch seems to be making a strange noise. I've only noticed it so far when the engine is warm, it does it when you bring the clutch up to the bite point to engage drive. It's a difficult noise to describe but given that the slave and master cylinders are both new it has to be the clutch itself? The clutch is worn anyway so I'll replace this too, I gather the part number for the correct clutch kit is 71734937 - is this correct? There's one in the following link for quite a good price so I'd appreciate some feedback here from Q4 owners (or anyone else for that matter).
http://www.ricambinuovi.com/store/_uk/p ... _cerca=164

3) There's also an oil leak from somewhere down the back of the engine. The mechanic thought it was from the oil filter housing but this seems unlikely to me, it's probably the rear cam cover that's leaking as I noticed there was evidence of oil leaking past the gasket when I replaced the starter motor. So obviously I need to investigate this too.


Apart from that, she drives rather well! The noise is better than I expected and though I haven't driven her in anger yet, the acceleration feels quite good. I'm not sure if it feels as fast as a 3.5 perhaps should, but I'll look into this next year when the car has had some more maintenance. The brakes feel good, the handbrake is fine (my old QV always failed the MOT on the handbrake) and everything electrical seems to work (with the exception of the airbag). So next year, when I've replaced many more parts, she should be even better.

Sorry for the long post! As always, all advice is appreciated.

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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby Alfan » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:57 pm

That is great news :D How could it pass with the non-functioning airbag?? And did it pass without cats?

I think somewhere on this site I wrote info about the clutch I bought for my Q4.

You have the first series airbag steering wheel, it was replaced by the other one you link to in 1995 and was used in the GTV/Spider, as already mentioned.

Maybe the extra airbag unit in the boot is a reason for the missing airbag light?
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:48 pm

The airbag warning light has had a piece of black tape stuck over it since I bought the car. I didn't bother removing it, so they've either not seen the warning light behind the tape, or they have seen it and have decided to be lenient. Either way, it's on my list of things to fix.

It didn't pass without the cats like I thought it would; the two failures were 1) lack of cats, and 2) exhaust emissions. I did try to argue that it didn't need cats to pass, being an import built before a certain year (which I think is how it works in the UK) but on this occasion the emissions were pretty high so it would never have passed an MOT without cats anyway. So I had to bow down and have a pair fitted. They had the car for three weeks, and the final fee was £420. I had a look underneath this morning and I could see lots of exhaust paste, so I'm not sure how happy I am with the work. But at least it's passed now.

It was from your post that I got the part number Alfan :wink: so the one in the link I provided matches that part number but also says it'll fit a 164 super. Is that right? I thought it was another Q4-specific item?

Perhaps you're right about the spare airbag, but it's not compatible with the wheel my car has fitted, so I'm not sure why I only have the airbag and not the whole wheel...perhaps the previous owner didn't realise he would need both!
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Re: Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 'Savali' progress thread

Postby HaydnW92 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:53 am

Thanks to another thread on this site I have found the following clutch kit:
http://www.mister-auto.se/sv/kopplingss ... 21248.html

This seems to be correct for the Q4 - can somebody confirm this please? (I don't often trust websites when it comes to Alfa parts numbers...)
1570 SEK equates to £140...bargain! I was expecting to pay twice that amount. :D
1994 Alfa 164 Q4 3.5 Savali Cosworth
1992 Maserati 222 4V (project)
HaydnW92
 
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