Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

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obenhaus
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Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 9:57 am

What do think, is it more or less easily to manage to adapt Selespeed to a 164 24V. For it you should know that I have 2 164 24V that are not running. The one is with manual gearbox which is totally damaged at the rear side. The wreck should now be used as a donor car. Especially I could take over the engine into the 24V C.A.E. The engine broke down and now I am in a law suit with the garage which does not repaired it orderly. I am afraid that the automatic gearbox may need a revision as well. So I was considering what about taking not only the engine but the gearbox as well from the donor car.

If thereon the motor management and the special parts for Selespeed (maybe preferably from 156 GTA) would be put it should work, shouldn't it? I mean the car already has 2 pedals only. Most questionable would be if the later motor management for GTA would work at an early 24V as well.

Sadly I will have enough time to consider this. I just filed in the law suit. It will take some month at least.
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 10:03 am

Just to mention why I am considering the above standing:

The automatic gearbox has 2 modi: Auto and sport. Sport feels well on small roads. But it does not change into a higher gear if you pass villages calmly, it still revs. On the other hand, Auto modus just changes already at 4000 rpm, just before 24V gets powerful. And on German Autobahn there is a gear missing. It revs too high above 180 - 200 km/h.

On the other hand I don't want to miss an automatic gear change especially in city traffics anymore. If I think back how demanding it was with a manual (worse was the late 12V with long 1st gear) with a big cities rushhour, it was not funny.

So Selespeed maybe a good and manageable compromise.

This could be crowned by adding a Q2 diff, couldn't it 8)
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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wilco
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by wilco » Sat May 11, 2013 11:21 am

I would make sure that you can fix the automatic gearbox first before you start the project. Do an oil flush and see if that helps.
It is possible to get it in the other car but you also need to change all the wires, probably the instrument panel and maybe the wires to that too..
All is possible but you have to do more that just the "hardware" i think. but i'm not an automatic expert so i could be wrong..
Pretty sure that you need the wires to the gearbox itself from the old one too.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 11:40 am

Hi Wilco,

you noticed that there is one Automatic and one manual. So there is no problem to get the specific hardware of each.

Questionable is only what does it need for building up a Selespeed?

An oil flush was already made. But it does not add a 5th gear. As well it did not change the programming of the auto-gearbox.
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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wilco
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by wilco » Sat May 11, 2013 11:49 am

I don't really get your point there. You mean you want to really put in a selespeed gearbox ?
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 11:56 am

Yes. As far as I know Selespeed is not a gearbox of its own but builds up on the standard manual gearbox family. If I understand right Selespeed has some specific hardware in addition like an actuator and a electro-hydraulic adjustment unit.

The idea is to take the Automatic car, to put in the manual gearbox (together with the running engine) and to add Selespeed to get a car with 5 speed gearbox but 2 food pedals only.
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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wilco
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by wilco » Sat May 11, 2013 12:13 pm

You might take a look overhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selespeed
You have to take a lot of things in account. engine speed, throttle position, car speed etc.
There seem to be loads of sensors.
Also a selespeed has its own hydraulic pump to (dis)engage the clutch.
I don't think it's easy to make that yourself. You need a selespeed ECU and get signals from the ECU.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 12:19 pm

Thanks Wilco. No, I don't wanted to do it myself. I just want to know if this could be made with reasonable effort. Or if it is like developing a new car.
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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wilco
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by wilco » Sat May 11, 2013 12:28 pm

i think the last... just thinking of when it switches gear, it also reduces the engine revs, so you also might need an electronic gaspedal instead of the wired one you have now, which requires a new ECU and throttlebody.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 12:35 pm

Well, a new ECU is nothing else as like you're doing chip tuning, isn't it?
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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wilco
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by wilco » Sat May 11, 2013 2:38 pm

and you think a different ecu will fit on the excisting cable loom ? ;)
everything is possible, but not even close to plug and play..
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sat May 11, 2013 9:04 pm

Thanks Wilco, I see the point.
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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wilco
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by wilco » Sun May 12, 2013 10:01 am

sorry to disapoint you..
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

sportston
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by sportston » Sun May 12, 2013 2:00 pm

It is possible but definitely not economically. It would be a highly specialised job. You would need an electrical expert and a competant mechanic. The many, many hours of labour would be very expensive.
I am not familiar with the later model automatic gearboxes fitted to the 164. But I have done a conversion from a 1991 model automatic to a 5-speed manual. That was definitely not an easy task but to change to a selespeed system would be far more difficult.

Does the sport automatic box have a kickdown cable like the older models?
If it has a kickdown cable you may be able to adjust the cable and fix your problem.

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obenhaus
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by obenhaus » Sun May 12, 2013 3:20 pm

sportston wrote:It is possible but definitely not economically. It would be a highly specialised job...
Well, to revise an automatic gearbox isn't cheap either.

The 24V has an electronical managed auto-transmission. So there should be a wire to a central unit instead of a cable. But to adjust the kickdown would not change that in sport modus it revs high even when driving with continueous speed.
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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alfa east
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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by alfa east » Mon May 13, 2013 1:55 am

obenhaus wrote:The automatic gearbox has 2 modi: Auto and sport. Sport feels well on small roads. But it does not change into a higher gear if you pass villages calmly, it still revs. On the other hand, Auto modus just changes already at 4000 rpm, just before 24V gets powerful. And on German Autobahn there is a gear missing. It revs too high above 180 - 200 km/h.
Well, for the passing of villages in a higher gear -when previous having engaged "Sport"- you simply press "Auto" and it immediately shifts up; yes, you have to make the effort of pressing that button but even if it is for just a short distance of passing a village it's no big deal (in Selespeed you would also have to press on the steering wheel +gear button).

In "Auto", if you do not want it to shift up at 4000 RPM you use the kick down then it shifts at high revs.

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Re: Adapting Selespeed at 164 24V

Post by 164 TD » Mon May 13, 2013 5:06 pm

Glad that there are still people out there with dreams!

Mine is still to buy a firstseries QV in Alfared and build in a 8.32 Ferrari engine out of a Lancia Thema. But I didn't win the dutch lottery last week.......
TD en Q4 owner

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Re: 164 24V - longer drive ratio

Post by obenhaus » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:52 am

Well, now I consider to change the differential or what ever it is for a longer drive ratio. The Lancia k 3.0 Automatic which has the similar auto transmission has a much longer drive ratio. This should be helpful to lower the rev level while going with high speed on German Autobahn. I guess that the high rev caused 2 times that I suffered an engine collapse at 240mh/h with the Automatic cars. Should be more or less easy to handle to change, shouldn't it?
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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