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164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:12 pm
by AlfaWhiz
Follow-up to the topic started in the Wanted section of the forum.

mike.foxtrot wrote:Looking for an used ABS pump, as the valve in mine is broken. Let me know if you have one.

164 TD wrote:Which valve is broken?

mike.foxtrot wrote:Not sure yet, I just got this general information from the workshop. Is it possible in any case to fix it without replacing the entire pump?

164 TD wrote:Not really, did you read out the ABS faultcode with the Alfatester or a paperclip?

mike.foxtrot wrote:
164 TD wrote:Not really, did you read out the ABS faultcode with the Alfatester or a paperclip?


Not yet, although I'm not sure what you mean by "paperclip". I just got the info from the workshop that they have diagnosed one of the pump valves to be disfunctional. I did not ask about the codes, but I will. I do know that it's also possible that one of the wheel sensors or other electronic components could be malfunctioning, but for now I trust them with the pump. I am not having it fixed immediately, so I will have time to read out the codes myself. :wink:

For now, looking for a pump, so if you have a spare one or if you have any leads, let me know. :)

164 TD wrote:Behind the driverside headlight is the testconnector. Take a paperclip and connect the lightblue and the black recepticles to each other. Now turn the ignitionkey to on and the ABS light wil start to flash. Count the number of flashes and it wil come up with codes...

If you read and post the codes and tell me what Q4 you have (with/ without red codekey) we will solve the problem.

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mike.foxtrot wrote:Thanks a lot for that, I did not know about the self-diagnosis. I should read more documentation. :oops:

I propose to move this discussion to the technical section of the forum: http://alfaromeo164register.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1427

I'll post the replies there.


I will post the result of the "paperclip" test when I get my hands on the car. This should hopefully happen in 2 or 3 weeks (the car is currently 800 km away from me in the workshop).

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:05 pm
by AlfaWhiz
A quick question here, does anyone know what is the Bosch/OEM part number for a Q4 ABS pump (part 60593385 in ePER)?

As I understand, those are not interchangeable between different models (all others get part number 60568235). The ABS block from other models in the Q4 is a no-go?

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:31 pm
by 164 TD
The hydromechanical part will be the same, the electronic part is different.

Currently this site in not online, but here you can find the exact boschnumber:

www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:21 am
by AlfaWhiz
Thank you, this is a very helpful website!

I have found the Bosch OEM part number for Q4 ABS block: 0 265 204 007, later substituted by 0 265 204 008. Maybe it will also be useful for someone else.

No information about sub-parts on the Bosch website. I will consider buying an "ordinary" ABS block and swapping the electronic part from Q4 onto it, we'll see how it goes.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:51 pm
by alfa east
mike.foxtrot wrote:I have found the Bosch OEM part number for Q4 ABS block: 0 265 204 007, later substituted by 0 265 204 008. Maybe it will also be useful for someone else.

Maybe move this part (under a separate topic title) to the "Alternative Parts" section of this site?

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 3:39 pm
by Maffia_Alfista
mike.foxtrot wrote:Thank you, this is a very helpful website!
I have found the Bosch OEM part number for Q4 ABS block: 0 265 204 007, later substituted by 0 265 204 008. Maybe it will also be useful for someone else.


Checked the OEM numbers on daparto.de if they had any suppliers for these parts

007 - No part

008 - € 3,306 :shock:
http://www.daparto.de/Teilenummernsuche ... 0265204008

found a slightly cheaper alternative searching with google but still expensive..
008 - € 2.444 :?
http://www.mercateo.com/p/C1028-0030(2d)0265204008/Hydraulikaggregat_Bremsanlage_Ergaenzungsartikel_Ergaenzende_Info_mit_Steuergeraet_Bremssystem_Hydraulisch_Brems_Fahrdynamik_fuer_Fahrzeuge_mit_ABS_.html?switchToCountry=de&chooseGeo=true

Maybe this company could refurbish your ABS for a cheaper price, could not hurt to send away a inquiry :)
http://www.bba-reman.com/catalogue/Inde ... category=1

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 3:42 pm
by AlfaWhiz
Good idea, done: http://alfaromeo164register.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1451

If I ever get to the point of replacing just the hydraulic part of the block, I'll update the information there. There are lots of "standard" ABS blocks for various Alfas out there on eBay, which actually look the same, so it would be very useful if one could swap them somehow.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 3:51 pm
by AlfaWhiz


:mrgreen:

Classic example of parts for expensive (when new) cars not depreciating together with the car.

Here I have to admit something. I lost an eBay auction by a simple mistake some time ago. Used Q4 ABS block in good condition went for... wait for it... 5,50 EUR. I cannot forgive myself that I've mistyped the offer when I was in hurry and somebody else got it. On the other hand, hopefully it will serve well to another enthusiast.

Now the hunt begins again, it looks worthwhile to stockpile a couple of those pumps and servos while they are available and start reconditioning them.

Perhaps the ABS block for Q4 is some sort of high pressure variant? But unlikely.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 4:06 pm
by Maffia_Alfista
I'm so mad with my local car scrapyard for crushing a 164 Q4 without taking care of a single part...

I was there 3 months after they got it (according to the previous owner that I bought an unmounted stainless exhaust from).. apparently they crushed it right away :evil:

I was hoping to buy at least the leather console that's sun cracked in mine and maybe the engine for my GTV6 but... no :(

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:50 pm
by 164 TD
Back to the origin of your question; how do you know that one of your valves/ solenoids is at fault; did they confirm it with a faultcode?

Solenoids seldomly fail; a wireproblem would be more my guess.

On the picture below you see on the lower part of the ABS unit a row of 6 wires; the 2 thicker black wires are the grounds, the other 4 are the powerwires to the solenoids.

Image

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:35 pm
by AlfaWhiz
Maffia_Alfista wrote:I'm so mad with my local car scrapyard for crushing a 164 Q4 without taking care of a single part...

I was there 3 months after they got it (according to the previous owner that I bought an unmounted stainless exhaust from).. apparently they crushed it right away :evil:

I was hoping to buy at least the leather console that's sun cracked in mine and maybe the engine for my GTV6 but... no :(


That's just painful. :(

164 TD wrote:Back to the origin of your question; how do you know that one of your valves/ solenoids is at fault; did they confirm it with a faultcode?

Solenoids seldomly fail; a wireproblem would be more my guess.

On the picture below you see on the lower part of the ABS unit a row of 6 wires; the 2 thicker black wires are the grounds, the other 4 are the powerwires to the solenoids.


I will confirm this once I finally get the car back. It should be within 1-2 weeks from now, I just have to organize the time for a trip to the workshop. Before this, I've decided to get a spare ABS block "just in case", so I would have it ready in case it will be needed to be replaced for the tech inspection so I could do it on the spot. I saw your detailed explanation about the wiring in the other thread, this will be checked in the first place. I'll post all the fault codes once I get my hands on them, too.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:02 pm
by Alfan
I have established that the pump motor does not spin when supplying it with 12V directly. I have the original ABS unit (it was replaced some years ago) and the pump motor on that one spins for a second with 12V applied.

Would be interesting to know if units from other 164's will work :)

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:43 pm
by AlfaWhiz
All right, I cracked a bit more of this problem. The top of my spare ABS unit is now on my desk, while the original, faulty one is still in the car. :)

I have read the ABS code, and it says: "Faulty solenoid valve relay". Also, I did the paperclip flashing light diagnostics, and there comes the number 12 and 19 (12 being a sequence start/end mark I assume).

Two problems.

First, the spare one has broken soldier joints on 2 legs of one of the relays. I was able to lift it up a bit so I can see it (it was wobbly). I would like to know what is the best way to re-soldier it? Should i lift it, re-soldier it and push it back? Or is there a way to access it "properly" (like from the bottom for instance)?

Second, as quoted here:
164 TD wrote:Back to the origin of your question; how do you know that one of your valves/ solenoids is at fault; did they confirm it with a faultcode?

Solenoids seldomly fail; a wireproblem would be more my guess.

On the picture below you see on the lower part of the ABS unit a row of 6 wires; the 2 thicker black wires are the grounds, the other 4 are the powerwires to the solenoids.


Should I investigate the above with the engine running? I suppose 0V on the ground wires and 12V on the power wires?

Will be grateful for suggestions, I'm trying to get my ABS sorted. :wink:

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:42 pm
by 164 TD
Do you have a picture of the broken soldierjoints?

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:18 pm
by AlfaWhiz
164 TD wrote:Do you have a picture of the broken soldierjoints?


Thanks for replying. Yes, I have, although not very good quality as there's little space there. Have a look:

Image
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I have managed to pull the base "pins" upward a bit, so they touch the relay's legs now. This way I think I can re-solder it. I would prefer to find out if I can open the entire box somehow and gain better access though.

I will appreciate any suggestions or ideas. :)

Also, another question: I managed to get hold of another spare unit, but this one is the previous version, with relays in sockets (push/pull). Are those interchangeable? Can I mount this older style unit (the entire box) on top of my ABS pump and be happy? Still I'd prefer to do a proper fix for the broken legs in my original box. ;)

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:50 pm
by 164 TD
If I look at my picture, I see torxbolts. What happens if you unscrew them?

Both relays do not cause an individual solenoidvalve to fail.

The only check that the ECU can make is an open or shorted to ground circuit.

First check the hardware; The six unsoldered wires go in triplepairs; 2 coloured wires share one ground; a black wire.
Measure the resistance between a colored and a black wire for equal resistance.



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Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:55 pm
by AlfaWhiz
I saw your thread about this. When you unscrew the 4 bolts in the corners and 1 additional one, the entire top comes off the ABS unit (the plastic part with relays as you see above on my picture). The two torx bolts to the right in the middle I am not sure, one of them is of this secure type which is worth mentioning. I tried to pry this box open, as you can see it consists of two parts (you can see the base from the side which I think is metal), but I was not successfull.

Maybe I will sacrifice an additional unit to investigate, but not the rare Q4 one, but rather one from a standard pump. Then maybe I can get and idea where the retaining clips are, if any, and how it's put together.

I was kind of hoping somebody did that already, but hey, someone has to be first. ;)

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:00 pm
by 164 TD
I haven't been there yet

Concentrate on the 6 solenoidwires!!

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:30 pm
by AlfaWhiz
OK, so I had some time to look under the hood and play with the multimeter, and here's what I found.

It looks to me as all the wires have equal resistance, i.e. between any color wire and black wire the resistance is the same. Also, between all the color wires themselves the resistance is the same. Additionally all the wires have the same voltage on them.

Does this mean now that the relay is indeed at fault?

Second part is a bit of bad news unfortunately. I cannot solder the relay back into it's base pins. It looks to me through the tight space that it is not soldered in, but rather "welded", from lack of a better term. The soldering wire simply does not want to stick to the relay's legs. I'm still trying to figure this one out.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:41 pm
by Porto
mike.foxtrot wrote:Second part is a bit of bad news unfortunately. I cannot solder the relay back into it's base pins. It looks to me through the tight space that it is not soldered in, but rather "welded", from lack of a better term. The soldering wire simply does not want to stick to the relay's legs. I'm still trying to figure this one out.


Those copper wires often have a coating on them to prevent short circuit with other components.
Take a pocket knife and try to scrape off the top layer, maybe the actual copper will take the solder or you also need a bit of solder paste to help the solder stick.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:25 pm
by 164 TD
Make sure both sides are degreased; sandpaper the relayfeet.Clean the tip and let some solder run over the tip. Than remove the excessive solder from the tip. Now apply solder to the relayfeet. Apply solder to the wire as well. When both have solder on, start welding the parts together.

how to solder

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:00 pm
by AlfaWhiz
Thanks a lot to both of you for those tips, highly appreciated. I am quite handy with a soldering tool, but by no means an expert. My point was to be careful not to make things worse, as I saw it didn't want to give with what I've tried.

I will try good cleaning/scraping and soldering again during the weekend and report on the progress. This being the ABS controller, I would prefer it to be fixed properly and work without flaws.

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:06 pm
by AlfaWhiz
So far, success! After a long fight, I was able to re-solder the relay in place. The space is extremely limited and very difficult to work on. Sanding down both surfaces with sand paper and glass fiber pencil helped (thanks again for the above tips, I was worried not to damage anything and therefore very cautious), then I used about 400 deg C setting to heat up and prepare the surface. I ended up putting a bit more solder than I would like to, because I had to work top-down and could not see much in the process. I've tested it put together and it looks as it should work. I'll try to get it back into the car tomorrow and we'll see if my ABS light finally goes out. :D

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:53 pm
by AlfaWhiz
Finally my ABS light is not lit. I'm quite happy with that, it looks like my efforts did the job, now I only have the 4x4 light on my dash, yay! :D

There are some doubts though. When I plugged in the repaired unit and started the car, I was extremely happy to see the light not lit. As it happened, it was raining at the time, so I went for a spin to test the ABS on wet roads here. The problem is... I'm not sure if it's working. I can definitely lock the wheels when going under 40 km/h, not sure if always or not as it requires quite a bit of input from my side.

The problem is, as far as I know, ABS light is not part of the Alfa Romeo Control system, so the "Test" button does not light it, and it's not lit before starting the car. Therefore, the light should only be lit when a problem is detected.

Now, is there a way to test if the ABS is working correctly? I've read here that you can manually give power to the pump and see if it's turning and also test the relays if they are clicking. Could you please help me figure out how to do this? I would like to avoid damaging it. :)

Re: 164 Q4 ABS problem (warning light on)

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:00 pm
by Alfan
Great news :)

The ABS light should be on when you turn ignition on and should turn off either after a few seconds or when you start the engine. I think it is mentioned in the handbook.

Did you read out error codes after putting in your repaired unit?

Of course, the ultimate test is if the wheels block or not. The pedal should kick back if the ABS pump is activated.