Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

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Cuore Sportivo
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 2:29 pm

Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Cuore Sportivo » Wed May 06, 2015 3:08 pm

Hello everyone, I'm a "Newbie" to this forum, but I am an enthusiast and frequent other Alfa Forums.

I've been having an unusual issue with my fathers 164. :cry: :cry:

Basically he has a late 1997 164 2.0 Twin Spark Super, he's owned since a few months old! Its been ran fairly regular most of it's life, and is in very good condition. Serviced regularly and always maintained well. In the last 7 years or so however, it has only been ran approx. 6 months a year (winter season) and then stored away.

Anyway, up until very recently, it has always ran perfectly with no issues. When the car was stored, the battery was disconnected, and when the time came to recommission her to the road, all it took was the battery to be reconnected (battery has been replaced a few times over the years) and she would fire up with no issues! :) She had been running perfectly, and back in regular use, then on one evening, parked her up in the garage for the night, then the next morning went to go start her to go out, and she refused to start! :oops: :cry: :oops:

Engine would crank/turn over, but she would not fire up! The most strange part about it all, is that the dashboard/instrument cluster, and AC/Climate control unit area, does NOT light up at all....however electricity does reach all of the other areas....ie power windows, all lights work etc etc.

The first thing that came to mind was it must be a fuse?! And a fuse was found that had blown, it is the one in the very far top right of the fuse box in RHD drivers foot well and is labeled as "Factory Security Devices". The car did NOT have a factory alarm only the key code immobiliser, however an aftermarket alarm system was fitted pretty much a few weeks after my father bought her, but a few years back was completely removed and isolated properly by the same auto-electrician, and is definitely not the issue. However this fuse keeps on blowing, as soon as you replace it, and turn the ignition key on, it blows. The thing is about this fuse, is that I am pretty certain this fuse was always obsolete and never in use in the past....but that being said, why would it be there and more to the point popping all the time if not in use?

I've tried replacing the fuel pump relay, as with the current issue, you can not hear the fuel pump priming when you turn the key and though it could be related, but no result....but the main baffling point is the dash not powering up....it appears as though current is not reaching the entire car when turning the key(the key barrel has been ruled out and tested by auto-electricians) and so it has come to a point now, that we genuinely don't know what to do.....its too good to scrap, and it really is in good condition and my father still loves her dearly and does not want to get rid of her.....I don't think it's an immobiliser issues, as the CODE light always went out and never stayed on in all time she has been used.

For those of you who have remained awake throughout my tale of woe, I applaud and thank you! :lol: And it is to those especially I ask if anybody has any idea what the issue could be? I have tried searching for similar symptoms, but can not seem to find any references to other owners who have experienced the same problem?

Even if anyone were to know of any specialist nearby to be able to call out or recover the vehicle to? We are based in West Yorkshire UK, it would be greatly appreciated....I really would like this resolving because its such a shame....

Many thanks in advance

CS

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Alfan
Q4 owner
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Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Alfan » Wed May 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Welcome :)

It seems that you have tried a lot to get it started and since you have been in contact with an auto electrician, I assume they are out of ideas?

- I don't know the fuse that is constantly blowing - have you found what it covers? I would try and get another fuse box, if possible.
- Have all ground connections been tested?
- Have you applied 12V directly to the fuel pump?

As a last resort, I would try putting a larger fuse in, and see if it blows. If it continues to do so, I think you have found a main problem area.

I have a 164 from 94 without all those security gadgets, so I can't really comment on any of them.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Engine
TS Super owner
Posts: 50
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Engine » Wed May 06, 2015 8:22 pm

Trying to grasp the issue. I'm not sure exactly what fuse keeps blowing up. Quick look did not show me any security device type of fuses.
Maybe start following the diagrams (from this site)? This may be a start. Just a selection from the power distribution. Also should not be extremely difficult. Just some hours walking through them. manuals/flsuperseries/schematicsFLSuper ... E94601.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here there seems to be something from iginition key going into fuse box G2; which also has most fuses for the instrumentpanel.
Also what exactly do you mean by not lighting up? Just the background lighting?

It's a good sign that the little Key Code light dims after a while. Means the Immo is still fine. What about the little red injector light? It should be on and during cranking it should go off. Not on ever means likely no power to the Motronic Engine ECU.

Good luck and with some more info a couple people on here should be able to help even better. I've rescued a handfull of 164's with just fixing some hard to find electric issue. They sure deserve to be rescued.
3-cil: 2006 Citroen C1
4-cil: 1997 Alfa Romeo 164 Super TS (fully restored)
5-cil: 2003 Volvo XC70 (daily)
6-cil: 1979 Volkswagen LT35D (campervan)
8-cil: 1988 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe (c4)

Cuore Sportivo
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Cuore Sportivo » Fri May 08, 2015 2:58 pm

Thanks for the replies folks, greatly appreciated

Yes I have had 2 auto electricians out (one was the guy that originally fitted the alarm several years ago),and the second one seems to think that its the immobiliser?! :?:

I personally can't see it being the immobiliser, because as stated before, the issues it's having just happened over night, and it had no CODE lights or injector lights coming up, prior to it not starting. But at the moment the dashboard does not come on at all....

Sorry I should have been more clearer, but the dashboard/instrument panel does not power up AT ALL now. No lights, no back lighting, no mileage readout, dials do not move, absolutely nothing. :( And neither does the climate control unit in the centre. No power or function at all....yet when the ignition is turned on, all the interior and exterior lights work, the power windows etc and the engine will crank/turn over when the key is turned....

I have not tried connecting 12v directly to the fuel pump, but if it were the fuel pump, surely it would not cause the dashboard power issues??!!

I agree it really does deserve to be rescued as it is a good, well used example and my father loves her dearly (prefers her to his 166!) and wants her back on the road....

Any more info or ideas really appreciated. Will try and take photo and location exactly of the fuse that keeps popping, and I have already tried a larger fuse and it still pops it INSTANTLY as soon as you turn the key to the 1st position....

Thanks

CS

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Alfan
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Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Alfan » Fri May 08, 2015 8:40 pm

Based on your additional comments, my only thought is to get another fusebox and see what happens. If all this happened over night, this must be the key element. Have you checked if moisture have gotten in to it or any wires have been broken or have bad insulation?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

164 TD
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Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by 164 TD » Sat May 09, 2015 4:30 pm

Is it the 10A fuse on the auxillary fusebox that is constantly blowing up?
That one is key operated and gives power both to the instrument panel and the airconpanel.

I would start removing the radio from the radiorack and see if the fuse stays in place; this fuse also powers the radio.


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muirallie
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Location: Auckland

Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by muirallie » Wed May 13, 2015 10:07 am

Hi there have you tried running a positive wire from battery to positive on coil to see if it starts. You'll at least know the engine runs and gets it mobile at least till you find main fault with ignition wiring. This is an old trick to bypass ignition.

Cuore Sportivo
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Cuore Sportivo » Mon May 18, 2015 2:06 pm

Thanks all for the replies!

It was indeed a relay, but not in the fusebox! Thankfully we managed to finally find a competent auto-electrician who spent the time and patience checking it all through. It was found that one of the fuses in the small hidden auxiliary fuse box (G2) was not getting any power, but when power was applied to it, the dash would power up and the car would start!

By following the wire from the G2 fuse box,(taking apart most of fuse box and instrument cluster) it was found that the wire lead to another relay(of 3) hidden behind above the steering column! He tested and indeed was found to be faulty! Replaced it and all was well. The only small issue I have noticed now, is that when you turn the sidelights and low beams on, the info lights for them do not light up on dash, but the lights ARE working, and the high beam info light and indicators work etc...perhaps another relay to find!

It genuinely does appear the popping fuse which is also in the G2 fusebox, as suspected indeed is not in use(even though it does have a feed) but the car has always ran without it...strange....

Once again, thanks to all for info and replies, the info sheets really helped a lot!

CS :mrgreen:

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Alfan
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Re: Help! Alfa 164 T.Spark Super Wont Start!

Post by Alfan » Tue May 19, 2015 11:34 am

Great that you got the car up and running again :)

Pictures of these cars are always welcome...
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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