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164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

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164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:45 am

My Q4 has failed to start a while ago after boosting a flat battery. I have traced the problem back to the fuel pump area. There is voltage coming to the fuel pump wires for a very short time when turning the ignition on, and then when the car is cranking, but obviously no fuel is coming out (fuel rail dry).

Anything else to check before I blame it on the pump? :cry:
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby Alfan » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:24 am

Can you hear the pump spinning? And if not, have you tried applying 12V directly to it?

Oh, and is the relay for it clicking when turning ignition on?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 535.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 260.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 60.000km
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:38 am

Yes, the relay is clicking. At the moment I couldn't hear the pump, as the starter motor was making a lot of noise, but it's a good point to try to run the pump directly from a 12v supply and then see if it works. I'll give it a try in the evening and report back.
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby Alfan » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:17 pm

If you remove the rear seat cushion and just turn on ignition, you should be able to hear the pump run for a short period of time.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 535.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 260.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 60.000km
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:27 pm

Alfan, you were right on the money with testing the basics thoroughly again. I checked everything again today, and the pump is indeed running! I can hear it shortly after turning on the ignition, and it did work with direct 12v power supply.

Since my battery is completely dead, I have noticed, that when attempting to crank, there is no power given to the fuel pump, i.e. multimeter reads 0v. Only after I release the key from the start position, some voltage shows up briefly. I suspect at the moment that the starter motor is draining whatever is left in the circuit, although obviously this has been tested when jumping the battery from another car, so I'm still a bit confused. Perhaps the other car's battery with the engine started does not have enough power to get the Alfa running.

Also, I was experiencing issues with my starter motor, which was perfectly fine before. The problems started obviously just after replacing the head gaskets, when the starter was right there, perfectly accessible, and as soon as it has been covered up again and access has been made nearly impossible, it started failing and developed a loud squeaking noise. :mrgreen:

Maybe it's seizing and draining more current than it should? Today it failed to turn the engine over, despite boosting the battery from the other car.

Any thoughts guys?
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby HaydnW92 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:27 pm

Regarding your starter issues, one pretty sure test is to unplug the G151 big round connector behind the false firewall and apply 12V directly to pin 1 (pin numbers are visible) on the female side. This should send power directly to the starter motor, if the starter turns then your problem lies elsewhere; next I would check battery voltage and the I10 starter relay under the dashboard. See if it clicks when you turn the key to 'start'.

I am currently replacing the starter on my Q4. I checked everything else first, hoping that that starter was not to blame but I was unlucky! In the manuals section of this site there is a troubleshooting/diagnosis guide for starter issues which should help. Let me know if I can provide any advice?
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:07 pm

Problem solved by replacing the starter motor. :D

I did the job myself, took some time, but I got distracted by a couple of other things on the way (renovating the intake plenum, etc.). I would say HaydnW92's suggestions were spot on, the top bolt was by far the most difficult one, but besides that the job is manageable. I did it on a flat surface, had no access to any ramp or inspection pit at the time. I put the car up on some jack stands and I slid some spare rims under the front wheels to be sure, and was able to work on it pretty comfortably from the top and bottom.

Now she runs fine again. :D
Last edited by AlfaWhiz on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby HaydnW92 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:25 pm

I'm happy to hear that you got it sorted! And also glad that my advice was helpful to you. :)
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby Alfan » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:32 pm

Good to hear the engine spinning again, I am sure :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 535.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 260.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 60.000km
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:54 pm

Intermittent no fuel problem came back today! :cry:

I hear relay clicking for a few seconds after ignition turned on, but fuel pump is silent. The car failed to start earlier today, I tried several times. Then after ca. 30 minutes it started normally on the first attempt. In the evening it does not want to start again.

I am going to dig in with a multimeter and check if the fuel pump receives any voltage, and try to power the pump directly.

Not a good time for such silly misbehavior, with the Arese meeting approaching! :cry:
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:10 pm

So the fuel pump connector gets ca. 12 V for 1-2 seconds after key is turned to "run", and it gets ca. 10-11 V when cranking. Fuel pump is completely silent (after plugging the connector back of course).

Connector itself checked, connection in good order.

Will apply 12 V from battery to the pump directly to verify, but bad fuel pump suspected.

Why would it be intermittent before though? Is there any additional connection which could be the culprit between the fuel pump itself and the connector outside of the assembly?

Any special tools required to fasten / unfasten the assembly and fuel lines?
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby AlfaWhiz » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:04 pm

The beast lives again! :mrgreen:

I've installed the fuel pump lucky mentioned below, no issues at all. I made lots of pictures and will report in detail later on. I will validate the results on a road trip to Arese tomorrow, nothing as exciting as 1200 km trip right after a major repair. :mrgreen:
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby Alfan » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:53 pm

Great work! :mrgreen:

Enjoy the trip, I had a great time going there in 2010 for the 100th anniversary in my Q4 8)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 535.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 260.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 60.000km
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Re: 164 Q4 no-start condition, no fuel

Postby alfa east » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:34 am

AlfaWhiz wrote: a road trip to Arese tomorrow, nothing as exciting as 1200 km trip right after a major repair. :mrgreen:

Good Luck! And hope you have a terrific time. Don't forget the camera(phone)!
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