164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

For the technical things.
glove
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164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by glove » Thu May 12, 2011 1:38 pm

Hi

I have had my steeringrack refurbished. After that, the warninglight for the 4wd starts glowing after 5 minutes drive.

Several alfa workshops i sweden have tried to help me reeding ev. faulty codes with no luck. (they dont have the old alfa tester, or the tester does not work)

But now the last workshop says that the problem i have is probably because a wrong type oil in the powersteering/hydralic system.

When the steeringrack was mounted, a Red ATF oil was used. Ar-bil in stockholm says that this oil can brake the viscomatic, ant that it should be a LHM+ / CHF 7.1 oil instead.

Can anyone help me get wiser?

please mail me: c_lima100@hotmail.com

Regards// Christian Lima, Strömstad, Sweden

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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by 164 TD » Thu May 12, 2011 3:43 pm

Image

The picture is kind of corrupted, sorry for that.

The steering/viscomatic oil for the Q4 is Tutela GI/R, not widely sold.

A good alternative in Holland is Kroonoil Special Hydraulic Fluid SP 3013.

Bleeding the viscomaticsystem is an whole different ballgame; beside the old Magneti Marrelli tester, you need the MA12A module to perform this job.
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glove
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by glove » Thu May 12, 2011 4:41 pm

Hi and thanks!
The Kroonoil Special Hydraulic Fluid SP 3013, is a LHM+ oil, also citroeen and audi uses LHM+...
By using a wrong kind of oil (in my case a red ATF oil) is it possible that the viscomatic system can fail, by this?

C. Lima

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ALFAHEIDA
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Thu May 12, 2011 5:00 pm

Hi Christian,

First of all, welcome!
This is a link of the oil you can use. Kroon oil

ATF is really not an option.

Regards,

Erwin
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Alfan » Thu May 12, 2011 8:33 pm

Tutela seems to be available here

http://www.shop4parts.co.uk
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 185kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 95kkm

glove
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by glove » Fri May 13, 2011 1:17 pm

Thank you everyone for swift answers!

But is it possible that using the wrong kind of oil (ATF), can result that anything get broken?

The 4wd warninglight turn on after driving for like 5 minutes. Do you think by only chaning oil to LHM+ this problem will disapear?

C.Lima

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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:15 am

glove wrote:Thank you everyone for swift answers!

But is it possible that using the wrong kind of oil (ATF), can result that anything get broken?

The 4wd warninglight turn on after driving for like 5 minutes. Do you think by only chaning oil to LHM+ this problem will disapear?

C.Lima
Anthing new on this one? I also noticed that my car has red ATF's in it and i have 4wd warning light glowing... That "kroonoil" isn't available here also...
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by 164 TD » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:30 pm

It might have something to do with the viscosityindex (maybe by lower temperatures since the viscomatic is way in the cold back of the car), Maybe the lubricating caracteristics of this oil are better.

Anyhow it is recommended.
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:51 pm

as long as you cannot read out the errorcodes, you're guessing.. could be total different error..
Where do you live in Sweden ? if close to Oslo, its a 7 hours drive to here.. and i have the tester you need. :)
Main problem with the viscomatic, is to get the air out. what you can do, is open the return line on the visco steeringbox itself a little (right backside onder plasic cover) let the engine run for a while, while doing that. you might get lucky with that.

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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:22 pm

I opened delivery line a bit while engine running and there was some flow. Pressure was very low i think. Is there a measuring point where should i measure the pressure?

I live in centre of Finland, not Sweden :)
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by 164 TD » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:50 pm

The pump is a two stage pump, low delivery at idle. Alfa recommends to rev up to 2000 rpm in order to bleed system.The systempressure has to go up to 102 bar in order to open the bleedvalve.

Image

I made my own hydraulic schematics since Alfa didn't make any:

Image
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wilco
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Tamariini wrote:I opened delivery line a bit while engine running and there was some flow. Pressure was very low i think. Is there a measuring point where should i measure the pressure?

I live in centre of Finland, not Sweden :)

lol my bad:P
but use the returnline.. so the air can get out of the block..
Thats how i did it when i dint had the tester

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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:29 pm

164 TD wrote: I made my own hydraulic schematics since Alfa didn't make any:
Thanks. looks great :)
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:32 pm

How does 4x4 light act when everything is ok? on for few secs and then off? or does it need hydraulic pressure before it turns off?
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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wilco
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:31 am

no like the abs light. on for a few sec and off again. if it sees an error, it will come back on again. this can be directly after selftest and while driving.

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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:45 am

wilco wrote:no like the abs light. on for a few sec and off again. if it sees an error, it will come back on again. this can be directly after selftest and while driving.
ok, thanks. Then my problem is not pressure related because light stays on all the time. Must be something on the electronics i think.
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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wilco
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:53 pm

check connectors. i just had the light comming up because the connector on the gas valve opening went off.
the system also checks the level of the oil. is there enough ?
on the steering, is also a potmeter, check if the connector is on and the potmeter is ok.
does the 4wd engage ? with minor errors, it will be engaged, even when the light comes up

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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:40 pm

wilco wrote:check connectors. i just had the light comming up because the connector on the gas valve opening went off.
the system also checks the level of the oil. is there enough ?
on the steering, is also a potmeter, check if the connector is on and the potmeter is ok.
does the 4wd engage ? with minor errors, it will be engaged, even when the light comes up
I'll check the connectors first, 4wd does not engage on any situation. Is there anywhere some chart in which i could see the ohm-readings of components?
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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wilco
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:20 pm


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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:28 pm

just see in the manual that it also can be the break switch.. worth checking.. would be nice if if it would be that simple ;)
also check the level sensor of the hydraulic oil.

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wilco
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:34 pm

I just red that the light goes off after 5 minutes of drive ?
In that case, yea better change oil first.I used Mobil ATF 220 which works perfectly in all temperatures.
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Tamariini
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by Tamariini » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:34 pm

wilco wrote:just see in the manual that it also can be the break switch.. worth checking.. would be nice if if it would be that simple ;)
also check the level sensor of the hydraulic oil.
Yes, it would have been nice :lol:

I wasn't that lucky... Switch on the clutch pedal wasn't working but did not cure the problem even i fixed it.
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by x3mperformance » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

wilco wrote:I just red that the light goes off after 5 minutes of drive ?
In that case, yea better change oil first.I used Mobil ATF 220 which works perfectly in all temperatures.
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???
Would that oil go at a Q4... Wilco, not just for QV's? (Here i think about the steering oil.)
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Alfa 164 Super 3,0 24V '93
Alfa GTV 2,0 '84

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Alfa 156 SW 2,0 TS 16v '00 (155 ps)
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wilco
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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by wilco » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:26 pm

thats the steering/visco oil.

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Re: 164Q4 What kind of oil in powerstering/hydralic system?

Post by g84 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:30 am

The original oil for the Q4 powerstering/hydralic system was a mineral CHF 7.1 oil Tutela Gi/r, it was gone for a few years but the name is now back. Now it a synthetic CHF 11 oil and it is not mixable with the old oil. The LHM + for the Citroen cars is the same thing as CHF 7.1 and easy to get.
Some use ATF oil but what happens in the longrun no one know. System is not made for that.
If you got ATF in it now and want to change back to CHF 7.1/LHM + you need to flush the system.
When you are at it change the filter in the reservoir as well.

JK
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