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Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:45 am

Hello @ all,
bought recently my first 164 Q4 with problems on the viscomatic system. Previous owner tried to repair but did'n manage to do so...
The hydraulic group is dismanteld, tubes as well, therefore I have a doubt on the positions where to fix the hydraulic tubes. The two lines with the screw fittings (guess these are the pressure lines) are obvious but the two other with the ring-fittings (returns) can be excanged.
Can anybody post a picture or description on which positions the tubes should be installed?
Many thanks for your help.

JP
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:01 pm

Welcome JP,

I made this hydraulic schematic in the past, will this be of any help?

Image

In our "manuals" section, you can find, amongst others, the productbulletin:

productionbulletin Q4
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:34 pm

thank you very much for your answer. I found it here as well but unfortunately, it doesn't help as the connexions are not indicated.

there is one hose which is connected twice on the hydraulic group - a big ring fitting with a smaller one at the end. It would already be a help to know if the small ring fitting is connected to the connexion close to the accumulator or sidewise on the hydraulic group. If this one is fitted correctly, the others are obvious.
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:51 pm

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:21 pm

Thats it - excellent :D

thousand thanks :D :D
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:23 pm

This is a picture of the Q4 mockup at the engineering department of Alfa in those days.

Although the lines are not connected to the viscomatic, it will give you a rough idea how things were hooked up to the hydraulic unit.

Image
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby alfa east » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:53 am

Welcome JP. Hope you can post some photos of your bella. And to see how internationally 164 ownership is spread it's always interesting in which you country you live. Maybe you can share that with us.
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:52 am

Thx :D

bought that car in Germany but will be registered later (when its finished) in Luxemburg. Of course I can post some pictures, probably next week, when it's on its weels again :D

Will install the rear axle this weekend, hope that purging the system will work with the "resistance method". Plan to use Liqui Moly Power Stering Fluid for the hydraulics.
Followed by some general maintenace and it will be on the road again :D courious to drive that car, actually its my first Alfa, used to drive the SAAB 9000 AERO.
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby Alfan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:15 am

Pictures of disassembly and reassembly would also be nice - and photos of how you hooked up the visco-lines, so the answer to your question is available :D
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby Romuald » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:55 pm

164 TD wrote:This is a picture of the Q4 mockup at the engineering department of Alfa in those days.

Although the lines are not connected to the viscomatic, it will give you a rough idea how things were hooked up to the hydraulic unit.

Image

Hello!
Please tell me where I can read the whole article?
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:50 pm

I'm currently working abroad, I will be back in 3 weeks. I will post the complete article when I get home.
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:01 am

Hi @ all,

took a few day but finally managed to bring the 4WD back to live again ;-)
Image

following a few pics.

- the hydraulic group unit
Image

- under the car
Image

- engine compartiment
Image

- inside
Image
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby ALFAHEIDA » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:10 am

Well done!

8)
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:27 am

bleeding the system was quite easy, a 5 minutes show. Probably of interest how I made it...

Image

- took a 100 kOhm resistance which I trimmed to the right value (ca. 25kOhm)
- connect to the plug
- fill oil in (liqui Moly Power Stering Fluid - Art. N° 1127)
- Mount the car, start the engine
- 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear up to +/- 2000 rpm
- after a few seconds, the 4WD light switched off
- done
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:26 pm

xaveriusba wrote:bleeding the system was quite easy, a 5 minutes show. Probably of interest how I made it...

Image

- took a 100 kOhm resistance which I trimmed to the right value (ca. 25kOhm)
- connect to the plug
- fill oil in (liqui Moly Power Stering Fluid - Art. N° 1127)
- Mount the car, start the engine
- 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear up to +/- 2000 rpm
- after a few seconds, the 4WD light switched off
- done



Interesting solution; how did you get to it and how did you get to the 25kOhm?
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby Tamariini » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:08 pm

Your intake pipe looks interesting, any closeups on that? How are sensor and breather pipes attached?
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:42 am

Interesting solution; how did you get to it and how did you get to the 25kOhm?


have a look @ the shematics of the viscomatic system, you will notice that the presure sensor (L56) is nothing else than a "potential divider" which you can realize either by two well defined resistances or by one poti (which always has 3 connexions - reff voltage (+), Grouns(
-) and the "tap" (in the middle which is the value for the ECU)

If you mesure the resistance on the presure sensor between the pins B+C without any presure, you will get the "idle resistance" which was on my senors around 25kOhms. Taking the resistance between pins A+B is more or the less the same so total resistance should be somewhere around 60 kOhm but as I only had a 100k in Stock, I took this one. (you can get this restistances in any electronic shops)
just take care how you connect the resistance to the connector.

***the hint for the "resistance solution" I found somewher on the internet, probably here in this forum, don't remember anymore. The idea with the poti is inspired by the shematics***
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:43 am

Tamariini wrote:Your intake pipe looks interesting, any closeups on that? How are sensor and breather pipes attached?


will take a few closeups with description. Have to examine first ;-)
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:35 pm

xaveriusba wrote:
Interesting solution; how did you get to it and how did you get to the 25kOhm?


have a look @ the shematics of the viscomatic system, you will notice that the presure sensor (L56) is nothing else than a "potential divider" which you can realize either by two well defined resistances or by one poti (which always has 3 connexions - reff voltage (+), Grouns(
-) and the "tap" (in the middle which is the value for the ECU)

If you mesure the resistance on the presure sensor between the pins B+C without any presure, you will get the "idle resistance" which was on my senors around 25kOhms. Taking the resistance between pins A+B is more or the less the same so total resistance should be somewhere around 60 kOhm but as I only had a 100k in Stock, I took this one. (you can get this restistances in any electronic shops)
just take care how you connect the resistance to the connector.

***the hint for the "resistance solution" I found somewher on the internet, probably here in this forum, don't remember anymore. The idea with the poti is inspired by the shematics***


I kind of explained this theory in this topic, however I never tried it. bleeding viscomatic system

You just proved the "Higgs particle theory"!
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby wilco » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:43 pm

it's funny to see how simple things can be while they look so difficult :D
i did it by just opening the linen to bleed them, that worked for me.
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby xaveriusba » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:35 pm

Tamariini wrote:Your intake pipe looks interesting, any closeups on that? How are sensor and breather pipes attached?


sorry, cannot post more pictures - board is full but can explain; it's quite easy installed

- don't know if the filter Box is original 164 - there is a number on it (AR 6059 4231)
- the intake tube is from SAMCO
- there is a hole in the tube to fix the temperature sensor
- the tubes from the engine breathersare put together with an "Y", which ends up under the car.
don't know if its that good... any comments on that?

thats it ;-)
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby Tamariini » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:41 am

xaveriusba wrote:
Tamariini wrote:Your intake pipe looks interesting, any closeups on that? How are sensor and breather pipes attached?


sorry, cannot post more pictures - board is full but can explain; it's quite easy installed

- don't know if the filter Box is original 164 - there is a number on it (AR 6059 4231)
- the intake tube is from SAMCO
- there is a hole in the tube to fix the temperature sensor
- the tubes from the engine breathersare put together with an "Y", which ends up under the car.
don't know if its that good... any comments on that?

thats it ;-)


Ok, thanks. Here it's illegal to install breathers that way :?
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby hf hpe » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:28 pm

Hello guys

I have a problem with my friend's 164 Q4.
4x4 system is working OK, BUT the fluid is pop-off from the reservoir, when the cap is removed. And the oil leek from reservoir when the cap is on place.
The viscomatic system is bleeded, and warning light is off.
The previous owner removed the filter in the fluid tank. Is it possible the reason for the leaking oil to be the missing filter
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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby Romuald » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:52 am

164 TD wrote:I'm currently working abroad, I will be back in 3 weeks. I will post the complete article when I get home.

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Re: Viscomatic/hydraulic group

Postby 164 TD » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:29 pm

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa !

I forgot all about answering. To be honest, I'm working abroad again, this time for another six weeks, so please remind me in another 6 weeks.

The fact that the oil is gulping out when the cap is removed is what I can recall normal system behaviour.The system is a hipressuresystem and has backpressure as well. It could be very well that the removed filter has a certain dimension and shape that it seals the cap.Maybe one of the othert Q4 drivers can have a look if this is correct.

I bet that Alfist can supply you with a filter, a cap and a reservoir when needed.

Brgds,

Arjen
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