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V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby Artiz1 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:33 pm

Thanks! Now I'm in a desperate search for a replacement air flow meter 0280202207. Until then, there is no point of even bothering to start the car...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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2016-10: fixing the hard start issue

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:57 am

Hi,
Ok, so I haven't updated this thread for nearly a year now, but it's just because I really didn't have the time to work on my car...
Only few days ago I finally got some more free time and now I can sort our many of it's issues to get it ready for this years local motor fest (3rd of June) and for the 5000 km round trip for the 30th 164 anniversary. I yet have nooo idea if I will be able to get the car ready for that big even, but I'll try...We'll see...
Anyway, back in mid October I had about an hour of free time, while being besides my car and firts thing I did, I took out the fuel pump to see if the internal hose was ok. Now a little tip - there is not much info on the late Super model fuel pump connection removal, but what I have found - it's very easy - the delivery pipes are held with quick release connectors, which you just have to squeeze and lift up. That's it:
Image

Then a struggle to take the fuel pump assembly began, but about 15 minutes later I had it out, on my table and with the hard start and stall issue clearly displayed on my table:
Image
Image

Both rubber hoses were split. No wonder it did not want to start. And then stalled after a while.
I took the best quality fuel hose I could find locally and installed it together with some new stainless steel clamps.Of course the installation was done about a week later, from the removal date :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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2017-01: big move

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:13 am

End of January was a time for this car to be moved to it's new home. I had to relocate my silicone workshop to a new location, so these premises had to be abandoned and this car moved out. While browsing through my old junk, I accidentally found a used but good AFM from the 155 1.8TS I had. The P/N is different to the one my car should use, and this one indicated being used in the 2.0TS 164 as well, but everything else seems to be identical. And being a good working unit, I thought it won't be any worse if I install it instead of my current faulty unit:
Image

After installation it looks like the engine, when started, tries to play with it's revs for about 5 seconds and then it stabilizes. So it seems that it is better than it was. Possibly not ideal and I'm still (passivly) searching for the correct unit, but it will do the job for now.

Since the car is yet not legal to drive, it had to be towed. Since it's an automatic - it's more healthier to tow with it's engine running. So it was a good test for the fuel pump and AFM fix. As it had to idle for about 20minutes.

New fault alert! - being -4C outside, and sitting on a cold leather seat for 20 minutes, it was the best time to test the seat heating...which doesn't work. When the passenger seat heating is on, the light on the dash lights up and heat can be felt. But the driver's seat doesn't illuminate a light on the dash at all. I'll have to see - maybe the switch is faulty...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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2017-02: bought original GT wheels

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:26 am

Since the new workshop+garage was not yet ready in time, the car had to be stored near my home for a week. The silicone workshop was ready, but the garage part was not yet ready. Once it was cleared for a car to drive inside, I drove (sorry, I broke the law...) it to the garage located about 2km from my home. Only one two things to say - 1) f..k the diesels (my daily) and 2) f..k the stupid DSG transmission. A 20 year old car equipped with a proper ZF tranny with loads of issues shifts more accurate and feels much better to drive than a brand new 7 speed DSG...
It happened so, that I had a set of R20 chrome wheels from my Chrysler 300M which I sold, left unrequired. I had no intention to store them until spring to sell them for a better price, so once I accidentally came across an ad where a guy was selling his GT wheels that did not fit his 159. I offered to trade and (surprisingly) he accepted this. I'm not sure what will the outcome of that 159 be, possibly ugly (huge american style chrome wheels) and poor handling (they were very heavy), but my concern were a set of very good R17 GT wheels:
Image

I think these are the next best thing to the original Zender wheels. They suit these cars rather well. And being light, they will not compromise the handling.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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2017-03-30: wheel fittment

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:38 am

Some extra hour was available for me. Having the wheels right up in my sight I was itching to try them on. My wheels were 6.5Jx16 Et30.5, while these are 7Jx17 Et17, so according to some online wheel calculators, with 225/45 tires, they shouldn't be too much off to the inside.
First, I tried to install them with the original 3mm spacer and original bolts. No good. It seemed that they even did not want to go onto the hub. I then put a second spacer (in total 6mm, or 3mm from the previous setup) and it was better, but still the bolts seemed to bottom out.
Image
Image
Image

After a quick advise from a Facebook group, I checked both wheels and confirmed, that I need to have an about 5mm spacer and 5mm shorter bolts in order for the setup to work perfectly.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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2017-04-28: wheels sorted

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:57 am

Ok, so with something stated, you can't just leave it, right? Well this was the case. A few days ago, I got my new shorter bolts:
Image

And custom made (water jet cut) aluminium 5mm spacers:
Image

Which are 112g lighter than the old original spacers:
Image
Image

I know 100g is basicly nothing and it can be added with a larger tyre etc, but knowing that I did not add weight with a non original mod, somehow calms me down. As when I look at my friend with his 7 series BMW who has 50mm steel spacers that weigh about 3-5kg each, I feel sorry for the handling...

While I was doing the rear right wheel, it was a good time to replace the fuel filter. Unfortunately I could not lift the car using the original jacking point, so I had to use the subframe, because:
Image

I just hope that the rust did not spread to the part which holds the links:
Image

I already found a welder, that had a workshop in the same location near mine, so he'll have a look on Tuesday and evaluate what can be done. I need to fix this, since it won't pass it's inspection in such state. Rust is not allowed.

Anyway, fuel filter removed and I may have found the cause of a knocking noise from that side, which I thought came from the suspension:
Image

Broken filter bracket. I also discovered that the filter was changed at some point, and was not that bad (I thought it will be worse):
Image

So I had to use a cable tie until the welder will sort this out. Anyway, all four wheels replaced, car down, and a nice shot:
Image

Sorry for the mess in the background. As I said, the garage part is yet untouched :)

Now the most important thing to solve - why doesn't the engine run so smooth. If you remember, I told that it seems that it runs on 5 cylinders. Well I used an old but good invention, called the spark tester:
Image
and made sure I have spark in all 6 cylinders. Then I unplugged one by one plugs on a working engine to determine, which cylinder doesn't work. To my surprise - it seems they all work! If I unplug any of the spark plug wires, it works much worse..
That means that it's only the injectors that can cause the trouble...
I have now downloaded and installed the diagnostics software and will test it out on Tuesday - will see if I get any faults shown. Then I'll go from there...
In the mean time - any thoughts?
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby Alfan » Wed May 03, 2017 7:38 pm

Great to see that you are back at work on the 164 :D I see that there is some work to be done...

Injector sounds like a possibility, but trying to get an error code is a good idea. I hope you get the SW & HW up and running!
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 535.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 260.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 60.000km
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Unstable idle? Evaporation control valve!

Postby Artiz1 » Thu May 04, 2017 6:46 am

Right, so on Tuesday I eventually did get the software running. I still can't understand the Italians, why would you need to go through this:
Image
in order to connect your car to the diagnostics system...

Anyway, I hooked it up and the alfa164diag showed an "Evaporation control valve. Type 249. Short circuit at V batt. Condition 45. Counter 5" error.
At first I thought "wtf" and then immediately thought of a faulty idle stability valve...
While I was "there", I thought to clear the air big warning light as the same time, so I reached for the connector:
Image
...just to find it to be a two pin late version...

So I had to install the "multiecuscan". Since the free version does not allow to connect to these air bag systems, to my surprise I noticed that it can connect to my car's main ECU!. How convenient! It also showed me the same error with a suggestion to do the valve actuator test. I clicked on the test page and there was not only the evap valve, but a separate ISV valve test. Ok, so I done both. ISV seemed to work fine. but that evap thingy did not respond. Back to the manuals.
Later I found that this evap valve is a thingy to redirect the petrol fumes from the tank into the plenum. There is a valve which opens and closes to "vent" the fume canister. Later that night I quickly did a search on eper for the part number and found that it's a very common bosch part used on many cars of that period. Then all of a sudden I remembered that I had a complete vent canister from a 155 which was always in my way and I always liked to kick it for fun, but never threw away, just in case...
Well that just in case happened to be yesterday:
Image

I quickly removed the valve and gave it a clean and connected it to 12v for testing - it worked:
Image

Then I located the canister in the 164. It is on the left side, behind the bumper and the wheel arch liner. You can access it from beneath without the need of removing the wheel or liner. So I disconnected the 2pin connector and by means of a multimeter tested if there is power when the ignition is on - there was. So the cables are ok.
Later I removed the old valve and tested it against 12v directly - no clicks...
Installed the new valve, started the car and let it self learn until it reached it's operation temp. At first the idle was jumpy, but then the more time went by, the more stable it got until eventually it became as stable as it should. During this warmup I once again connected the diagnostics to find no more present fault codes. I also let it warm up until the fan kicked in to see how everything works - yup, fan kicks in, thermostat opens when it should, engine temp nice and steady. One thing I did notice is a pale coolant temp warning light. I think it may be a bad sensor. I'll need to buy both sensors today and replace them. Apart from that - idle cured!. I stopped the engine, then started it back again - and the idle was stable right from the start :) I hope it will be the same today.

Now the running on 5 cylinders thing. That did not go away. When I looked at the available diagnostics test, there were two injector banks listed one for 1,2 and 4 cylinders and the other for 3,5 and 6. I was nearly certain that the old 12V ran on batch fire order, firing all 6 injectors at once. But it seems that these late versions had two injector banks. That gave me hope that maybe I have connected the injectors wrongly. So i did the injector tests just to find out that I did everything correct and the fault is not in the wiring...
Next, I removed the spark plugs (platinum ones) with a thought that maybe they don't work with my engine well. After removing them and replacing with regular ones, it still runs exactly the same, but what I did notice, that cylinder number 4 plug was indicating a very rich mixture:
Image

I think this well may be a faulty/dirty/clogged/leaking injector.

I also remembered that I had some spare correct injectors from my ex 166 2.0 V6 turbo, so I will look if I still have them and possibly swap them over tonight.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby alfa east » Thu May 04, 2017 9:42 am

Interesting reading! Good that you kept these parts!
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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby 164EVER » Mon May 08, 2017 3:34 pm

Hello, so you go on doing such a big work, but aren't you daring the rust that should have seriously damage the floor and it seems have attack other structural parts :shock: :?
GPL is a :evil: display, had one on a Ford Transit camper, I learned all about it by myself, it's source of issues and problems.
Wish you good luck, you deserve.
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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:30 pm

164EVER wrote:Hello, so you go on doing such a big work, but aren't you daring the rust that should have seriously damage the floor and it seems have attack other structural parts :shock: :?
GPL is a :evil: display, had one on a Ford Transit camper, I learned all about it by myself, it's source of issues and problems.
Wish you good luck, you deserve.


Rust treatment is my next topic - it looked worse than it was. So I guess I'm lucky on this one.
LPG/GPL or whatever - when installed correctly and by using the latest modern gas injection systems is no trouble at all. If you can enjoy the joys of Busso for half the running costs - why not? :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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2017-05-06: Rust treatment

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:50 pm

A month ago I found a chap that could fabricate and weld in the required new rear jacking point sheet metal.
It was an early Saturday morning, the sun was shining and a towed (no legal inspection still, remember?) 164 was traveling across the city. But on my way I saw a car wash and I just could not resist to do a quick jet wash to remove the 11 month old dust:
Image
Now that's better! :)

After that, it was dropped to the welder. 8 hours later I picked up the car with completed work: the rust was not that bad - only the jacking points were shot, but the metal going to the subframe links was still ok. Since the welder only does panel welding but no (professional) anti-corrosion prevention, I asked him to weld the required panels in, to use the existing original jacking pad (it was ok, just a bit rusty on the outside) and to cover the welded areas with anything he has for the time being. Which turned out looking like this:
Image
This temporary until I will cover the complete underside with some anti-corrosion prevention thing. At now the car can pass it's inspection and if I get a flat tire, it can be jacked up using an original jack.

After I returned to collect the car, I could not resist taking another shot:
Image
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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And then came the valves...

Postby Artiz1 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:17 pm

Ok, so body issues have been sorted. Wandering idle and rough start - also sorted. But that unsmooth running was driving me mad... Furthermore I thought it might also affect the emissions. I found some injectors from my ex 155 TS, that are identical to the OE units, but before I replaced them I wanted to make sure that the engine breathes correct. So my next job was the valve gap check and adjustment.
Front cover removal is easy, so without any delays I had this view in front of me:
Image

After checking the rockers, the cylinder number 6 was knocking very loudly. Of course it's gap was 0.45mm which was much more than allowed. Other cylinder exhaust gaps were more or less better but not perfect. I quickly adjusted them to specs, only to find the following:
https://youtu.be/pAG07bsH-ls

No matter how small the gap was, it still knocked like mad. After further look, I found a damaged and dented tappet. The dent was causing the knock. I wanted to remove it via the rocker side, but it got stuck! It meant that it was either so flattened that it became oval, or that the seat was damaged. Damaged tappet means grind down lobes? Indeed. The lobe was approx 5.4mm instead of 6.4mm.

All this seams to be understandable except one thing - I had a fouled number 4 plug, but number 6 was ok. ???
Then came the intake valve gap time:
Cylinder number 6 - 0.4mm. Out of spec but should't cause that much problems;
Cylinder number 5 - 0.38mm. Even worse, but same;
Cylinder number 4- 0.2mm!!! And here might be a potential problem...

There was no choice but to remove the camshaft and get it remanufactured and then set the valve gaps to correct specs.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby Alfan » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:37 pm

You know your way around that engine too, so looking forward to the end result!

It seems that this car is close to being back on the road :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 535.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 260.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 60.000km
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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby MikeCZ » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:31 pm

Really nice work :) And I was wondering before about those wheels too - now I know how they would like on mine :D And I will go for them as well (if I will manage somehow to get 17" wheels into paperwork :roll: ).
Did you use spacers only on rear wheels or also on the front one? Same size? Because on mine front is quite OK considering how much wheels are "sunk" in the wheel arch but the rear one are too deep - I would like to pull them out a bit anyway.
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Re: V6 12V Super automatic - An old dream come true...

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:32 pm

MikeCZ wrote: Did you use spacers only on rear wheels or also on the front one? Same size? Because on mine front is quite OK considering how much wheels are "sunk" in the wheel arch but the rear one are too deep - I would like to pull them out a bit anyway.


Mike, I used same 5mm spacers on all 4 wheels. I didn't know that the rears did not have spacers on them originally, so I did a full set of 4 only to find that I could get away by using the original front 3mm spacers in the rear to compensate for the extra offset (well, inset to be precise).

Currently I'm in the process of assembling the dismantled engine back, as I had my both camshafts removed and remanufactured. I'll upload some pictures of the process and some helpful tips later.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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Late 12V alternator belt removal

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:14 pm

As I already mentioned above, the camshafts needed to be remanufactured due to worn exhaust lobes. In order to remove them, there are many other things to do. The sequence has been written many times on other forums, but here are some of my tips:
1) Plastic timing belt cover removal - it can be made without loosening the engine mounts (as per some other descriptions). Yes, it may be easier, but if you have thin hands, don't bother - you'll save yourself some time.
What you want to do is just jack up the front right side, remove the wheel, and start unscrewing all the 10 mm bolts. I found it not that hard. I did struggle a bit with the left (rear) timing belt cover part, but eventually I got it off and had this view in front of me:
Image

2) Auxilary/serpantine/whatever belt removal - Note on the picture above, that the very late 12V engines had only two belts, rather than three! The A/C pump is now driven by the same alternator belt. Easier design, which also uses an automatic belt tensioner, which can give you trouble:
It's my second 164 with such engine, and the second one which I see the tensioner being stuck and not moving. The first time I noticed this on my old car was when the belt started squeaking and slipping. Fortunately this one did not do it...yet.
Anyway, this tensioner was very specific and was used only on the late 3.0 12V and on the 2.0 V6 turbos. I don't know about the Spider versions of 12V engine, but the later 2.0 turbo, found in the 166 has yet another setup - eventually they decided to use a single belt setup, just like on the 24V.
Guess what that means? - Extreamly high price (I have been quoted 150 Eur with huge trade discounts), barely no stock (special order only) and no alternative manufacturers producing it.
But first I had to remove this wonderful invention. At first, you won't find any visible bolts or nuts to remove it. Nor are there any manuals showing the procedure. Personally I spent nearly half a day trying to find the correct nut. At first I thought that the complete bracket must be removed, but later after a very close inspection, I found a hidden nut, which can be accessed by crawling underneath the car and using a long 1/2 inch extension and a CV type adapter (or whatever it is called). Here is the rough location of the nut, it's still not visible (you can see only the alternator nut), but it's roughly there:
Image

If you are not planing to remove the water pump, you can leave it. But in order to remove the water pump - you'll have to unscrew one of it's hidden screws, that is located behind the alternator bracket. And to move the bracket (you don't have to remove it), you have to get to it's hidden screw, behind the tensioner:
Image

Alfa engineers really like to hide the bolts as much as they can :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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12V power steering belt removal

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:04 pm

If you thought the previous procedure was a bolt hide and seek game, check this out:
In order to do the next step, which is the power steering belt removal, you either need to have a special tool or have your ATF fluid leaking all over your workshop. I choose the later option.
Be it the early or late 12V engine type, they all have the same PS pump location. It is tensioned by the actual pump, so in order to remove the belt or adjust it's tension, you have to loosen all three pump screws. Two of them are not too hard to reach, but there is one 13mm screw, that sits behind the 24mm power steering fluid transfer hose screw:
Image

In the picture above you may notice that the water pump has been already removed. It's because I left the stupid PS belt as a last job, because you can't replace the timing belt otherwise.

Like I said, you have to select your path - the professional one, or the dirty one. I went for the dirty, because it's easier/faster and I still needed to replace the PS fluid, as the steering felt a bit heavy. So why not now, since I'm already down here :)

If you would go for the correct way, there is a so called GM distribution wrench that can be used. Or you can weld your own :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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12V Camshaft pulley removal

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:28 pm

Ah yes, I forgot to mention that since I had to remove the camshafts, it made sense to replace everything along the way - all belts, tensioners, water pump, thermostat, both thermo sensors, hoses...
Having your timing belt still intact, it's a good time for loosening the 22mm acorn nuts on your cams. The additional tension on the timing system allows for easier loosening of those otherwise hard to crack nuts.
Here's a tip - you don't need to have the special tool or even fabricate your own according to the template. It's the year 2017 now and universal cam locking tools cost peanuts. You can even get away without using any on the front pulley - I just used some 14mm drill bits and two pry bars - one to hold the cam in place, the other to loosen the nut. But this did not work on the rear head, as there is no space for such improvisations. So I had to buy a tool for 11 Eur:
Image
If I had known this before, I would have bought it and used on the front head as well. Makes live so easy...

Now you can remove your timing belt by using a pair of needle nose angled pliers. Just turn the (mechanical) tensioner counter clock wise and loosen your belt.

Next, comes the actual cam pulley hub removal time. Again, nowadays don't bother with creating stuff unless you're determined. 30 Eur and you can have this:
Image
And a moment later - this:
Image

Now one thing to note - again, some advise to lower or raise the engine in order to access that rear cam pulley. Well I didn't bother with that. What I did was just shortened the tension bolt of my newly acquired set and that's it. Ah yes, one more thing to note - for this to work, you have to remove the actual teethed pulley. On the later cars it's easy, because the whole assembly is only a pulley and a hub, while the older cars had some more parts that make this more complicated.

On the early 12V engines you can remove the cam throught the distributor hole. But not on the later engines - it's plugged. I'm sure the plug cam be removed, but I wouldn't like to touch it just to find out that after doing so it will start to leak:
Image

Finally, after all that work - the cam is out. And just look at that work exhaust lobe:
Image
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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worn 12V tappets

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:37 pm

After removing one camshaft, it would make sense to take a look at the other one, right?
Plenum out, cover off, cam revealed:
Image

Jackpot! Just look at that cylinder number 2 exhaust tappet:
Image

Some time later I had the remaining cam out:
Image

And now look at the tappets:
Image

Especially at cylinder number 2 and 6 exhaust tappets:
Image

In general they all have to be replaced as they have some scratches that you can feel.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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12V camshaft lobe height

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:47 pm

Back to camshafts.
Here is some interesting and possibly helpful info I had collected:
These late 12V engines have the highest possible valve lift, despite producing only 180 bhp. The cams used here are also known as the "S" cams in the US market, so are a highly desirable upgrade on the early 12V engines. However, because these late engines are distributorless, they use a somewhat different cam. In essence everything is the same, except for the end, where there is no more need to drive a distributor. So if you are looking for a set of used cams, you have to look only for these late engine specific versions.
Another thing I found the hard way out, and I was warned before I started - all the manuals for these late engines have wrong data on the lobe size - all manuals list the smaller 9.1 mm intake lobe size, while these late cams have the high lift 10.4 mm lobes. Same goes for the tappet size chart - I found it useless when it comes to intake tappets - they were much larger than stated in the manual.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

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Late 12V water pump removal

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:06 pm

Ok, back to engine wrecking :)

Now was the time to remove everything that can be replaced while the timing belt is off.
First - the timing belt tensioner. It's the same unit, found on all early or late 12V engines, that had the mechanical (not hydraulic) unit. Removal is simple - unscrew two 13 mm bolts and it's out. It was about time to replace mine, as the spring although not broken, but very worn:
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This is how it looks after you tension it manually and then release it. The spring doesn't go all the way back and gets loose. Not really surprising, but worth to mention that this was still the OEM unit, with all the Alfa Lancia logos on it. So someone has replaced the belt and the bearings only. This was also evident on the alternator belt tensioner as there was a bolt screwed instead of the original non removable rivet.

Next up - thermostat and it's "sandwich" plate:
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Luckily the bolts did not brake and came out easily. But someone had replaced one M7 bolt with an M8 and so an original smaller screw will be loose there...

Before you remove the water pump, for me it was easier once I removed the oil pump gear. I just used my 11 Eur pulley blocking tool and a few seconds later the gear was removed.

Now the water pump:
Remember that hidden behind the alternator tensioner bolt? Well once you remove it, and loosen both alternator bolts, you can move the whole bracket aside and get to that hidden water pump bolt:
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And here we are - pump removed :)
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Like I said, I did this in a different sequence and removed the PS belt last, but the sequence I described above should be the correct and easiest one to do.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)
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different water pump casting

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:31 pm

A can of brake cleaner later, the ATF was washed off as much as possible and the engine has been cleaned a bit from the old grease and mud. Now was the time to install the new water pump.
The pulley can be removed very easy. Just unscrew the three 10 mm bolts and use a pulley puller to separate it from the pump.
Here how the new and old pumps look like:
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Note that the new pump has some kind of casting hole in it's lower part:
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I thought that it might create problems as my old pump did not have this hole, but later I discovered that it's just a casting hole and it is blank. No risk of coolant leaking out of it.

Old gasket leftovers had to be scraped off. Parts that could not be scraped off, had to be sanded with a very fine grit sand paper. One thing I loved about this engine is that Alfa did not use any sealant here and in fact on most of the coolant joints. I really like this.
Anyway, here's the new pump in it's place:
Image
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)
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assembly continues

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:41 pm

Next, the alternator bracket was tightened back in place along with the alternator.
Then the oil pump gear was put back on and the timing belt slipped on. This was done, because I wanted to pretty much complete the bottom part of engine as much as possible now.
Power steering belt also on and tensioned:
Image

Note - I used a long pry bar to push on the PS pump bracket from the top of engine bay, while I tightened all three pump screws. By doing this I got just the right tension on the belt. I hate the old fashioned belt tensioning methods...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)
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AD alert! Silicone coolant hose couplings

Postby Artiz1 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:49 pm

The thermostat housing has two short hoses that connect it to the engine block. I have been looking at these couplings with caution for a while now, so again, this was the best time to replace them. One hose has both same size ends, while the other one has different end sizes. Well, why not make myself a permanent replacement out of silicone? :)
I made them in red, just for them to be seen better when assembled. As you really won't notice them in black. So new thermostat on, and the new red couplings have been secured with stainless steel clamps:
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I did cock up a bit and put the letters upside down, but I didn't bother to do another set, haven't got the time for that...

So if anyone would want a silicone set either in black or in red - let me know. I will check this later, but I think these are identical on all 164 V6 engines. And I haven't seen them on for sale anywhere else.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)
User avatar
Artiz1
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:55 pm

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