Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

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Alfan
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Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:02 am

I have always had a thing for the 164 and when the Q4 came around, it became one of the cars I would really love to own. With a price tag new in DK of 100.000 euro, that wasn't really going to happen anytime soon, but one day the opportunity finally came to get hold of a used one.

In 2003 I bought my Q4 produced in May 1994, so I have now owned it for almost 10 years and done about 225.000km of the total 475.000km it has done ( the reason for not knowing the correct mileage is because of 5 months of driving is not accounted for, as the nylon gear wheel was broken viewtopic.php?f=2&t=971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ).

Over this distance the car has used app. 27.000L of petrol, a lot of it being Shell V-power, as earlier I have recorded improved consumption compared to 95 octane (I think they recently degraded the quality of it, so might go back to 95). For the main part of this time I have used Castrol 10w-60 Sport with good results. It used about 1L per 10.000km and doesn't seem to have changed.

This was one of 2 Q4's sold new in DK and was the Danish Fiat importers press car and several stamps in the service book shows the maintenance from authorized dealers. I am the 5th owner and have no intention of selling it on - and probably no one wants to buy a car with this mileage... :wink:

I have always used it as my daily driver and still do. It brings a smile to my face going to the car, getting behind the wheel and starting that lovely V6 - that will be hard to replace when the time comes. It has been very reliable, even though it has had a couple of long 'stints' at the workshop (one being problems in the ECU wiring harness, others having a hard time finding the needed parts).

A lot of things have been fixed on the car over the years (mostly minor) and there are still things to fix. One of the great improvements was visiting Goats in San Diego to get a repaired LCD display, which has been working flawlessly ever since!!! I have collected the list of things to do here, some more important than others and I plan to post the progress on this along the way. So here goes - in a sort of prioritized manner:

--FIXED -- ABS light on - pump motor failure - pump motor not spinning when applying 12V directly to it - replaced the pump unit, but the electrical unit has a defective pump motor relay, hopefully this can be replaced, though it is a fixed relay
I have now had the relays replaced, now I get an error for the right front and rear left solenoid valve (read elsewhere for this)
Replacing the 60A fuse related to the ABS seems to have fixed the issue - the ABS light does not come on when driving :)


Updated, but not fixed -- 4WD light coming after longer driving - error message from module in French 'Signal Course piston du a: Course trop court Absent' - this error is still present + venting the system with the tester did not succeed - it seems the valve is the problem, replacing it requires draining the system. Replacing the sensor for the piston movement did not help, so most likely it is the viscomatic clutch not working properly??!

-- Cracked wind shield

-- The courtesy mirror light is out - voltage to sunshade

-- Remote central locking has not worked during my ownership, but might be related to the above?

-- Electric height adjustment of headlights - plugs need to be fixed

-- Electric mirrors don't work at all sometimes, no adjustment or folding. Cable up to buttons replaced.

-- Adjustment of bonnet, as it requires 2 pulls to open and it moves somewhat at high speeds...

-- Handbrake only works on right side, have to replace the caliper and cable

-- Drivers door is sagging - mounts worn

-- Airbag light is on - steering wheel squib needs to be replaced

-- Petrol gauge needle is sometimes 'shifted' for a period of time - now it is completly off - haven't looked into this, but expect it to be a problem in the tank - might be working again...

-- Indicator stalk not auto cancelling after turn - have a replacement part and some day I will take the airbag wheel off, but so far I have learned to live with it

-- Left & Right front door, central locking doesn't work - I think the unit is worn out

-- FIXED - One of the lower, exterior door panels are not properly fitted, clips are not available from Alfa anymore, found one from another 164

FIXED??-- Radiator fan starting at random - seems to be a defective trinary switch (Q20) - replaced trinary switch, need to test more.

-- Partly FIXED - Engine noise at startup and some times during driving, sounds like hydraullic valve lifters, added some cleaner, now changed oil, filter and sensor - sound is still there, so must be down to wear and tear... It has reappeared after driving 4000km this winter, replaced the oil, hope that it is gone again - coolant leaking in to oil?

-- Partly FIXED - Checkpanel button works sometimes - maybe the button is not working correctly

-- FIXED - The clock in the center console works, but I can not set the hours - button problem? DONE when unit was changed.

-- FIXED - Windshield wipers are not cleaning the middle of the screen - springs in wiper arms worn? Bent the arms, which improved it

-- FIXED - AGAIN! - Leaking rear screen - got some black stuff, normally used on trains, I was told. Rear screen will be replaced with a new one later

-- FIXED - Passenger seat, one bolt is stuck - proper tools fixed it

-- FIXED - Steering rack leaking! I have a reconditioned one and am considering replacing the transmission with the new one I have and do the clutch at the same time - well have the garage help me with it... this is now replaced together with the servo pump - clutch and gearbox replaced with all new parts.

-- FIXED - Idle speed regulator defect - no connection in any of the wires (wrong plug was connected :roll: )

-- FIXED - 4WD: the steering sensor was placed 90degrees off, most likely due to wrong positioning when the rack was reconditioned!

-- FIXED - One bolt missing at the bottom of the front, right strut - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-- FIXED - Evaporation solenoid valve fault - plug looked very corroded, a clean seems to have fixed this - Wilco's diagnostic sw came in very handy here :mrgreen:

-- FIXED - HVAC blower not running - Q31 has been changed to another used one, problem solved (seems to be a problem with the speed regulator that is used on climate controlled version http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168 ... t-q31.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (a temporary fix has been made, so I don't freeze in the winter time - though the engine pre-heater helps if the fix quits :D ))

-- FIXED - Illumination of instrument panel (adding external ground to C8 in fuse box brings light to panel, I have not found the reason for the missing ground)

-- FIXED - Lower part of the center console has no back light - this is a problem inside the console, as tested with another that works. I need to switch the display to this unit. The original one has quite a lot of corrosion at the bottom of the printed circuit where the backside plugs are. DONE

-- FIXED - Passenger seat rear height adjustment not working - motor works up, not down, replaced switch

-- FIXED - Hazard lights coming on randomly (that can drain the battery in a few hours!), so quick solution is to remove the relay when leaving the car. Possibly the button or print in the used center console I put in recently, fixing other issue. Put another used center console in and problem is solved.

-- FIXED - Rear lambda probe not regulating - ground to the probe was not good, cleaning it was enough

-- FIXED - AGAIN! - Leak in fuel tank - rubber ring around rubber ring above the pump needs to be replaced


-- FIXED - without me doing anything! - Leak in 4WD hydraulic system - above differential, tube/joint is leaking, got a replacement to install

-- FIXED - Small leak from oil cooler - it is now replaced with a new one

-- FIXED - Front exhaust manifold leaking - gaskets replaced

-- FIXED - Need to replace strut lower bearings

-- FIXED - New dampers for boot, now it doesn't close on its own

Modifications to the car:

- Installed an auto-dimming rear-view mirror and it works! :D

I believe these were the main things. There are some cosmetic things needing a little attention, but nothing serious. Finally I have the option of lifting the car and I don't think it looks that bad considering the mileage and a winter that feels very looong here (still salt and snow), but I guess the yearly inspection in about a week will give more info on this... :o

This list is pretty long, but the car still drives well and brings that smile to my face - then all of the above just fades away 8)

I will try and keep this thread updated, as things come along - both new issues and hopefully, fixed stuff! Some of it should also go into my photobook for you to have a look at - which maybe you will, if you have read this far :wink:
Last edited by Alfan on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 43 times in total.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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alfa east
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by alfa east » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:51 pm

LOVED to read that..and all the way to the end too; phenomenal mileage. I will have to do a lot of big maintenance on my car as well soon (just to make it clear, have it done....) and will try to list the things down as well here.

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:08 pm

Great that you enjoyed it, East :D

If this thread can inspire to get more write up's of fixed things, that would be great - I sure hope to add stuff soon from my list...
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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wilco
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by wilco » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:24 am

Nice project Allan :D
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:32 am

First task is now done - the car passed its yearly inspection with no remarks. The drive to work afterwards was a joy with sunshine and no traffic due to upcoming Easter holiday :D
Last edited by Alfan on Sun May 04, 2014 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:46 pm

Well, steering rack leaking :(

So decision is to replace rack with a reconditioned one, transmission (have a new one) and clutch (just ordered a set). Hopefully, this can be done at the end of next week at the workshop...
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Tamariini
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Tamariini » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:45 am

Alfan wrote:Well, steering rack leaking :(

So decision is to replace rack with a reconditioned one, transmission (have a new one) and clutch (just ordered a set). Hopefully, this can be done at the end of next week at the workshop...
did you find an original set from somewhere for a reasonable price?
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:52 am

Tamariini wrote:
Alfan wrote:Well, steering rack leaking :(

So decision is to replace rack with a reconditioned one, transmission (have a new one) and clutch (just ordered a set). Hopefully, this can be done at the end of next week at the workshop...
did you find an original set from somewhere for a reasonable price?
If they price is reasonable I will let you decide...

I ordered it from the authorised Alfa Romeo workshop in DK and they could have it within 1 week. The price is app. 430 euro. I might be able to find something cheaper, but then I would not be sure if it was for the Q4 and have more difficulty returning it.

I need to find out if there are any things to be aware of when taking out the transmission, so any thoughts there are welcome :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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alfa east
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by alfa east » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:30 am

Your mileage is impressive of course, but I never heard of anyone wearing out the Getrag 6 speed transmission. New ones still show up sporadically but some knowledgeable website members (and Q4 owners) mentioned it "never" wears out ( I guess what they mean is, other important components wear out first).

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:27 pm

1,2 & 3 gears have worn synchros and the lock for reverse does not work. The clucth is also worn after almost 200.000km, so the decision to replace these made sense, as it should also ease the work of replacing the steering rack. I would not have done anything about it now, if the rack hadn't given up.

I think it is more a question of the transmission being able to handle much more power/torque without problems.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:02 pm

I have looked in the manuals I have and am not able to find anything about replacing the clutch for the Q4. I just know that it is stated to take 11 hours... Any suggestions where to find info on this would be much appreciated :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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wilco
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by wilco » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:48 pm

when the engine is out, it takes you maybe an hour.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:26 pm

wilco wrote:when the engine is out, it takes you maybe an hour.
I'm sure it will be a lot faster when the engine is out, but that also requires a lot of work. Would it be a good idea to take away the subframe (and of course support the engine)?

I got hold of Tutela GI/R and want to replace the red fluid in the servo and 4WD system. Any recommendation to what the best approach is to clean the system?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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wilco
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by wilco » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:19 am

the subframe has to get off anyway to replace a Q4 clutch. its on all sides in the way of the gearbox.
11 hours seems to be right if all goes well..
I did it last year twice because of a wrong new gearbox seal. costed me my chrismas.
second time i had it off in 2 hours but then all the bolts where new and i knew what too loosen.
Still a pain in the butt. You have to hang the engine from the top as all the supports will be gone with the subframe.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:50 am

Time for an update, as the car is running again! I updated parts of the list above, but still lots of minor things to work on.

I now got the Q4 back and did some Italian tune-up yesterday 8)

It was great to drive it again. The gearchange needs some 'settling in' it seems, but getting more smooth. Also there is some uneven idle, most likely an electrical issue, whether it's the motronic or cabling, I still need to figure out. The lambda probes don't seem to be adjusting, as they should, so there might be a general earthing problem.

So reconditioned steering rack & pump installed, new clutch and gearbox, overhauled subframe partsnew front tyres + some minor small things (e.g. oil pressure sender). Nothing that made financial sense, but so far I think I am going to enjoy it :mrgreen:
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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alfa east
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by alfa east » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:22 am

Alfan wrote:Nothing that made financial sense, but so far I think I am going to enjoy it
That is the most important thing, that you enjoy the car again. And since you did most work yourself it, there is also a sense of accomplishment (a thing I can never achieve, because I can't work on my car muself!). So, in the end you did mount a new Getrag gearbox? You invested in something like this:
Image
http://www.ebay.de/itm/6-Gang-Getriebe- ... 0209411825" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:54 am

I did invest in a new gearbox 8 years ago at a much better price :wink:

I can't take credit for all the work, I just gave a helping hand from time to time and got a hold of most of the parts needed (all relating to the part about not making financial sense...). But at least I have learned more about the car now :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Helli » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:13 am

Congratulations, Allen!

Quite a task, which you described.
It gives me the optimism to carry on with my Q4 :)
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:59 pm

I have now been driving the Q4 for almost 2 weeks and have done 1500km. It is great to be driving it again 8)

Some issues are to be added to the list above. I cannot get the 4WD system ventilated, the Marelli tester says it fails. There is an error with the piston valve movement for the Viscomatic - there is connection between the unit and the plug, so I need to find out if the valve is bad Then the steering angle sensor need to be reset to the proper value. Also it turns out that there is no connection in the wires from the ECU plug to the idle actuator. It would have been easier to replace those, when the engine was out...

But it is great to be behind the wheel of the 164 again :mrgreen:
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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wilco
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by wilco » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:16 pm

for the 4WD.. it might be worth to check the oil lines as the engine was out and now you have 4WD probs. hart to believe the piston is suddenly broken...
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:30 pm

wilco wrote:for the 4WD.. it might be worth to check the oil lines as the engine was out and now you have 4WD probs. hart to believe the piston is suddenly broken...
I forgot to mention that I have seen the error with the piston valve before, so I don't think it is related to the recent repair. I am wondering though if Tutela GI/R (green) in the latest version from Alfa works as I had intended...
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Tamariini
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Tamariini » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:43 pm

Alfan wrote:I am wondering though if Tutela GI/R (green) in the latest version from Alfa works as I had intended...
In my Q4 it doesn't...
--Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0T 2017--
--Fiat 500 2016--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 Turbo 1988--
--Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 1987--
--Alfa Romeo 75 2.5 V6 24v 1986--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 TS 1972--
--Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 12v 1999--
--Maserati 3200 GT 2001--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:15 pm

Tamariini wrote:
Alfan wrote:I am wondering though if Tutela GI/R (green) in the latest version from Alfa works as I had intended...
In my Q4 it doesn't...
Hmm.... Will have to consider what to do...
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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wilco
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by wilco » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:35 pm

well....... ;)
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Alfan
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Re: Long time road going 164 Q4 1994 project

Post by Alfan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:21 pm

Tamariini wrote:
Alfan wrote:I am wondering though if Tutela GI/R (green) in the latest version from Alfa works as I had intended...
In my Q4 it doesn't...
I forgot to ask which oil you are using now?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 155kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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