AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

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grigorbg
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AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by grigorbg » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:28 pm

Hello Guys,
This summer we start interesting project - we decide to convert a dead 164 TD (125HP) into 2.4 JTD 140HP ( From AR 166). The main idea is to keep alive one 164 (The Diesel pump and injector was dead because bad diesel fuel) and to make car useful for daily use (as comfort, dynamic and fuel consumption).

I will post some pictures these days but here is some info:
- Engine, gearbox, engine ECU are from 166
- Left swing shaft is from 164, Right one is from 166 but it was about 2-3 cm shorter now.
- Water cooler is from 166 (it`s bigger), Clima cooler is from 164, Intercooler is from 164.
- Dashboard (Speedo, Tacho ) are from 164.
- Speed sensor is from 164 and it`s connected directly to the gearbox (as original).

To Do list:
- Install Q2 Diff
- Connect the clima compressor to 164 clima control (thanks to this site manuals!)
- Transfer all my car Audio + sound absorbing materials.


The idea was to made only internal modification and not to touch original 164 interior or exterior. For the moment (after about 2000km) the car is performing very well and there was only few small problems to fix.

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Alfan
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by Alfan » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:36 pm

Welcome :)

That is a special project! I have never heard about that being done before, but it sounds like you know what you are doing :idea:

From your description it sounds like there were no major problems in doing this, was that also the case? It is good to hear that the car is working well after this transplant.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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ALFAHEIDA
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:21 pm

Hi Grigor and welcome here,

What a great conversion. Give the engine a chip and it's a beast.
What Alan asks, any difficulties regarding the engine swap?

Regards,

Erwin
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

grigorbg
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Location: Sofia

Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by grigorbg » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:38 pm

Hi guys :-)

Here is the last few minutes ot 164 TD in original state:

Image

The retro diesel engine is out:

Image

Here are the 164 and the donor:
Image

I`m computer specialist and only support my mechanic (and makes him nervous some time :lol: ). engine frames ( 164 and 166) are same or 99% same as dimensions and that was the reason to start this project (I don`t like to build Frankenstein).
The general idea is to reduce modification to minimum (easy to repair, easy to buy parts and etc. ).

- the Gears was easy - just take the 166 gear stick+plastic stand + metal wires and put it on the 164.
- ABS is from 164 - it`s independent module with wires and there is no need to use from 166 (if 166 was with VDC then I will try to transfer it... but this donor was with minimum extras). The previous owner was made some modification on brake metal pipes and I must fix them to have original look.

- We take "basket" (plastic mount module) from 164 and put 166 diesel pump in it and after cleaning the fuel tank we install it. There was no modifications with fuel tubes.

Image

- 166 engine ECU and wires was around engine originally and we don`t make any changes there. We connect new installation with current car installation (except few wires that are not needed or there is no module for them).

Image

Image

Image

Image

Maybe you will see from pictures (my english is not so good) how we use part of original 164 wires and connect them to new 166 wires.

Image

And here is with new JTD engine:

Image

Image

- The RPM was hard to fix and we choose the easy way - I buy a RPM module from 156 2.4 JTD , remote all plastic and take only the board (PCB). Then from 164 original dashboard we take + , - and signal (my mechanic connect new sensor to the original instalation). Then I cut the four signals to the 164 RPM motor (on the dashboard) and connect the PCB from 156 direct to the 164 motor:

Image

I will make few pictures tomorrow.

There is a problem with gearbox bush - we made mistake and now the engine is not in perfect line. I take a "look as new" engine frame from 164 V6 and these days we will replace the current with new one and after that the engine must be in perfect position.

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alfa east
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by alfa east » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:27 am

Wow, amazing job! Very impressive indeed. And welcome to our site!

grigorbg
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by grigorbg » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Thanks guys! I`m guest to your site from few years but till this moment I was reader only.

Unfortunately with old car there is a lot of small nasty problems.... here is the same :?

- The throttle pedal potentiometer (one of the hardest to remove parts) from 166 is not good and these days we must put new one.
- During all this modification we put PowerFlex bushes in the rear, now we must change the front also.
- I buy brand new springs ( Lesjöfors was the only "buy now" option in Bulgaria) for 164 TD... and now the front is a little higher (maybe 2.5TD is heavier than 2.4 JTD). I will wait few weeks and if the springs are still high.. I will cut them or replace with other for V6.
- I want to install cruise control knob ( maybe we will use from Lancia Libra because the visual design is closer to 164 ).
- And the final is to replace engine frame with new one because we didn't see that the reason for not perfect motor position is the small bush (gearbox) and we try to compensate with rear bush (cut some of the engine frame). During this operation we will replace crank shaft oil sealer and install Q2 diff.
- We must find a place to put oil pressure sensor ( the wires are installed) - this is the only not working part on the dashboard.

After that the car will be only for new paint and interior changes. I have light yellow leather seats and doors from 164 Super and maybe I will use them - dark red car with light yellow seats maybe will be better.
Also I will try to install something like board computer - I want to have fuel consumption information plus few additional extras.

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ALFAHEIDA
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:15 pm

Again, much respect and a great job!!

How does the car handels the engine, does this engine give the car a better handling?

Regards,

Erwin
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

grigorbg
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by grigorbg » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:32 pm

Normal driving - I can`t find difference between JTD and V6 Turbo (have two of them). I didn`t test in street/track conditions let because I want to fix engine position, ABS and front Powerflex bushes. I hope that before end of the year I will start testing ;-)

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wilco
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by wilco » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:34 pm

very nice project. thumbs up :D also for your english. easy to follow :D
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

164 TD
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by 164 TD » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:43 am

Awesome story!

When money, time and the moment are available I would like to transfer a Lancia/Ferrari 8.32 engine in a QV first series. Red ofcourse! I have all schematics already and the dream is there as well!
TD en Q4 owner

Image

grigorbg
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Location: Sofia

Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by grigorbg » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:32 am

Yesterday I fix one of the most important details on the dashboard:

Image

Few weeks ago I found web shop and order few ribbon cables. Yesterday they arrived, installation was easy, result - perfect !

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alfa east
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by alfa east » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:17 am

Grigor, where did you order the cables to repair the display? From any of these sites that were mentioned here? If it is a new source it is always interesting for other 164 owners to know.

grigorbg
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Location: Sofia

Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by grigorbg » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:37 pm

I order it few week ago (before start using this forum) and I don`t know your sources.

This is the cable: http://www.maxi-dot.sk/en/-alfa-romeo/3 ... zaciu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Alfan
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by Alfan » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:23 am

Thanks for the photos and the description, your English is good :) Also good to know about the solution for the display.

Was the 166 body worn out or are they just cheap, since you took the engine from it?

You write that you will maybe put doors from a 164 Super on it - as far as I can see it is already a Super version?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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alfa east
3.0 V6 24V automatic
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by alfa east » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:18 pm

grigorbg wrote:I order it few week ago (before start using this forum) and I don`t know your sources.

This is the cable: http://www.maxi-dot.sk/en/-alfa-romeo/3 ... zaciu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Porto started repairing them: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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obenhaus
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by obenhaus » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:08 pm

Hi,

great job done. Is the car driving well?

Nils
1993 Alfa Spider 2.0 IE nero 817
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V blu genoa 477
1993 Alfa 164 Super V6 24V CAE blu genoa 477 - stored
2000 Alfa 916 S1 grigio Eclisse 677
2001 Alfa 156 V6 24V blu vela

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sancho164
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Re: AR 164 TD to 2.4 JTD

Post by sancho164 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:26 pm

Grigor is driving his car everyday.
There was much developing by another people, after the first guy (on the photos) made the conversion with the target, to make the car working... somehow, just to get the money...
At final, the car is running very smooth. :wink:
1990 164 3.0 V6 AT, Azev C 16"
1996 164 2.0 TS Super, LPG, Azev A 17", Xenon 4300K, Momo leather

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