Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

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Artiz1
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2014-04-27 Engine stripdown continues

Post by Artiz1 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:17 pm

Finally have a bit more time to post some more pictures of last sunday's work. I was lucky, that here in Lithuania we still have such things as open market places, where you can buy loads of different stuff, I.E. special tools, like an M14 socket :) Less than 3 Eur was the price of a SATA M14 socket:
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After buying the socket, 20 minutes later (including the drive to my garage) I had these in my hands:
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Notice the oily bolts - a clear sign of some oil leaks:
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However after removing the heads I got two huge surprizes. first one was this:
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After closer inspection it looked like grain! Only in a farmers car can this be found...
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Surprize number 2 unfortunatelly slipped out of my fingers into my dirty oil and antifreeze collection pan - the main reason for the outward oil leak - someone did replace the head gasket at some point in the cars life, and when he did, he shaved off any contaminants off the block with a cutting blade of a razor blade. What he did by his clumziness was to leave a small piece of it on the block and then installing all the gaskets. If you look closer at cylinder number 1 and 2, in between them, you'll notice a huge oil leak. This is where the blade chip was...

Anyway, after removing the heads, I noticed that there's a lot room to work un der the bonnet. And I mean A LOT. Italian cars usually don't have that much access to all components :) This gave me an idea - why not to strip down everything I can, apart from the piston assembly (it is good and solid on diesels, so there is no point in that), and inspect, repair, replace everything along the way to make this rebuild job really a perfect one. So:

Air con compressor out:
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Air filter assembly out:
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All the filter box brackets are also gone:
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As was the intercooler:
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and the main cooling pipe at the back of the engine:
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The fule filter bracket was also removed:
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Then the air con radiator:
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Then the top radiator bracket:
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And soon the radiator itself:
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And last job for that day - the radiator bottom pipe:
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Now I'm looking forward for thursday, when it will be a Bank holliday here and I can work a bit more on the car. I'm planing to remove the alternator, starter, lower radiator bracket, the water pump and if I'm really lucky - the damned cranckshaft pulley...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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alfa east
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by alfa east » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:55 am

Great project and well documented with photos. Thanks for sharing!

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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by 164 TD » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:58 am

Make sure you do not move the crackshaft with the heads off; the pistons will move as well and move out the cilinders. The cilinders have gaskets underneath the cilinders and they will leak when moved!
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Artiz1
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2014-05-01

Post by Artiz1 » Thu May 01, 2014 9:01 pm

Thanks for your warning about the cylinder liners and their gaskets. I've read it before going to sleep and last night I had a dream that I'm constantly had to hold the liners in place with my fingers so they won't pop out :)))

Anyway, it's thursday, a Bank Holiday and I had some 4 spare hours that I could spend working on the car.
So my first job was to continuoe where I left last time - to remove the lower radiator mounting bracket:
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Then it was the water pump's turn. Since one nut at the bottom of the pump bracket is nearly impossible to unscrew, I first removed the actual pump (but that did not help a lot):
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Here is a close up of the nut. As you can see the gap is too small for a regular 13mm wrench to squeeze through:
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And an open ended wrench won't do as well, as the nut is too corroded.

So I had to buy a new cheap wrench and gring the top off:
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Now it fit's:
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I sprayed some penetrating fluid over it and let it soak in. In between I took off the top engine bracket that holds the idler pulley:
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And took the oil filter and oil cooler off:
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Unfortunately, the nut was so corroded, that even with a grippy wrench, eventually it rounded up and ws not giving up. So I had nothing else to do but to take a small hacksaw and split it in half. It took me about 20 minutes of hard unconfortable work in the wheel arch, to split that nut. Eventually the pump bracket was off undamaged:
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Last thing I've done for the day, was to clean the block from most of the contaminants and tape it with some painters tape to protect the cylinders from collecting rubbish.
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Unfortunatelly there's still some in them from taking out the dirty heads. Will have to figure out how to clean the cylinders from the small particles that are inside. Perhaps compressed air will help a bit.

Anyway, that's an update for today. There will be more progress on saturday...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Artiz1
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2014-05-03 Finally, some repair progress

Post by Artiz1 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:47 pm

I know that by now the whole project looks like a chop shop :) Everything is being removed and nothing has been repaired so far (apart from some minor things back when the car was on the road).
Well, today I have started some engine bay repairs, but it was closer to the end of the day.

First I continued on the engine disassembly and removed the starter:
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I was a bit scared when I found loads of metal files on the bracket:
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But after a closer inspection I found out that it must have been from another unit, which might had failed some time in the past. This could be confirmed by the starter bolts and nuts that I unscrewed easily.

Then I removed both front lights, the bumper, coolant expansion tank and put aside all the electrical wires so that the actual engine bay would be as bare as possible:
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As soon as I took off the bumper, I was very happy for two reasons: 1) I examined all the welding and all the panels and confirmed to myself that the car had not been involved in any frontal collision (this is very rare in Lithuania, as most cars are just welded from several and being sold as "undamaged"). 2) I have never ever seen such a heavy front bumper! It just says that these cars were really propperly engineered.

Anyway, as soon as I had some access to the bare engine bay, I sanded off the rust and prepared the metal for priming by applying a thick coat of Zinc:
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This was it for the day. Next week I will continue to cover the engine bay in Zinc and then Spray some primer on top. In the mean time I have sprayed the alternator bolts with some penetrating fluid as they were impossible to move :( Hope it will do it's magic :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Alfan
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by Alfan » Sun May 04, 2014 4:52 pm

That is a lot of work!!!

Great to see that things are being done properly :D I am sure you will have a well behaving car for many years to come, when you are done.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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Artiz1
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by Artiz1 » Sun May 04, 2014 8:53 pm

Oh yes, that is a lot of work. Especially when I can only work on the car once a week. I would like to get the car going as soon as possible, but then again I want it to be perfect. So I am doing everything you see here.
My plans for this month are:
Replace both crankshaft seals, replace all brake lines, Zinc coat, prime and paint the engine bay, clean, prime and paint the block. Anything else will be a nice addition to my plan and a step forward in the whole progress :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

164 TD
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by 164 TD » Mon May 05, 2014 5:44 am

Were you already able to remove the crankshaftpulley?

I would concentrate on the engine first before I should put any other money into the car.
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Artiz1
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by Artiz1 » Mon May 05, 2014 9:26 am

I sprayed loads of penetrating fluid on the crankshaft pulley and the alternator and will try to remove them the upcoming weekend. My plan is to do everything that is accessible at a given moment. I.E. when the engine is disasembled, it is very easy to replace the master brake cylinder and all the brake lines. Later it will mean removing loads of stuff again. So why not do it now? At the end of the day time is my worst enemy - so I want to save it as much as possible. If a nut does not want to uscrew or I haven't got a tool I need, I try to do other work that needs to be done anyway...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Artiz1
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2014-05-11 Crankshaft pulley removed

Post by Artiz1 » Sun May 11, 2014 9:47 pm

Despite my poor wellbeing today and my huge headacke, I managed to find some spare 4 hours to work on my car. 2.5 hours were spent trying to remove the crankshaft pulley. And here's how it all went:

First I installed some metal straips and screwed them to the pulley, so I could have better grip for the puller:
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That did not help... The twin 1.5mm thick plates gave up and split...

Next, I boughts some M8 1 meter long studs and a 3mm thick plate. I made some kind of a gadget where I could bang a big hammer on to, so that I could try and hammer the pulley safely out:
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Did not go well either.

Then I once again opened the service manual and inspected the original pulley removal tool and noticed that it's not a puller, but rather a pusher thing:
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It's a huge plate that screws to the pulley and sort of pushes the crankshaft out. So I used my newly bought plate and just bolted it to the pulley and continued to tighten the three bolts evenly until...
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...the pulley popped out with an ease! :)

And soon I had access to my worn and leaking oil seal:
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And after removing all 14 bolts that hold the timing cover (thank God none have snapped or slipped), I had access to all the timing gears:
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Then I understood, that I'm an idiot and did that in order to remove the fule pump, it's gear needs to be removed and of course unscrewed. But you have to lock the crankshaft in place if you want to do that, and that's why you have a small cut out in the timing cover. So I had to think of a way to lock the timing. I used my new special tool for this:
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And so the fuel pump gear nut was removed. However the actual gear does not wand to move at all. And there is no space to install a conventional puller tool. The spacial tool for it has an outside thread and screws into the gear:
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Any ideas on how to remove it otherwise?
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Artiz1
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2014-05-24 Gearbox removal

Post by Artiz1 » Sun May 25, 2014 9:39 pm

A gentle rocking movement with a prybar did solve the fuel pump gear removal issue and so the complete fule pump was removed:
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Apart from the alternator (which does not bother me at the moment), that was it for the front of the engine. Now moving to the rear side. Here we have the gearbox. Now since I have done this on my ex V6 164, in winter, out on the street on axle stands - it was easy for me to repeat it, especially when everything that is in my way was already removed. So after a few unscrewed bolts and nuts, I had this:
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I then removed the ABS pump and it's mounting bracket so that I could lift the gearbox out of the engine bay. I also removed the clutch and for my surprise, found it to be brand new:
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As they say - "You find some, you loose some". My car is not an exception - I found a new clutch and then all of a sudden, when removing the gearbox I did not find any oil in the gearbox... But at least, I did manage to lift it out without a winch of a hoist on my own:
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I don't know for sure yet, but I have a feeling, that it's not my rear crankshaft seal that was leaking... The empty gearbox (however it did not whine, and shifted gears perfectly), and some red sealant inside it do add up to the leak cause:
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Also, I can't remember a hole belonging in a bell housing:
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These are the numbers of my gearbox:
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I will have a search on it and see if my gearbox is really form a diesel or from a V6.

That is pretty much all for the engine. Next week I will disconnect the brake lines and brake master cylinder, and try to remove the front subframe so it could be fully refurbished.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

164 TD
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by 164 TD » Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 am

Holy crap, you make a real job out of it!
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Artiz1
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2014-05-29 final disassembly steps

Post by Artiz1 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:12 pm

It's amaising, what an impact wrench and a small compressor can do: 5 minutes and the flywheel is off:
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And the rear engine cover along with it:
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The stuck alternator was removed with the bracket (I still could not figure out how to remove the 15mm bolt in the alternator):
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LAst but not least, the steering rack was losened from the subframe, and the subframe was lowered. I layed the engine on the side in order to get the subframe out more easy:
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I wanted to push the engine to it's side and somehow twisted my back so badly, I had to end the days work...

Anyway, two questions:
1) how to disconnect the steering rack from the steering shaft? The manual does not say anything about it...
2) How to remove the brake lines going all accross the car towards the brake pressure regulator WITHOUT removing the fule tank? It seems they just got stuck and don't move...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

164 TD
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by 164 TD » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:25 pm

Remove the cover from the inside of the car. remove the bolt and slide out the splined shaft.
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JDqv
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by JDqv » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:06 am

AFAIK brake line goes form front to regulator and then it splits to both sides, one of which are blocked by fuel tank. IMHO you can't change it without taking it off. I had leaking brake line near regulator once on 12v 3.0 on the tank side. I just clipped off the bad part and combined in a rubber brake hose. TUV doesn't like that solution though, and to be honest - neither do I.

By the way, how do you plan to take the engine out?
Check out my Flintstone engine roller invention :lol: It works like charm.
I disconnected everything from engine, lowered sub frame on my Flintstone cart, lifted car up (such up, much height, so danger) and rolled engine out.
Now I can work on it all around, roll it back in, connect to car and start, roll it back out etc...
I guess this method is nothing new, but I feel like engineer :wink:

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________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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Artiz1
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by Artiz1 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:59 pm

Your engine looks like an engine and so needs something like that :) My engine is just a bare block with crankshaft camshaft and pistons in it, oh and an oil pan. That's it. So I can just put some rags under it, lay it on it's side and drag it out :) But first I need to cure my back, as I now walk like a 90 year old...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Artiz1
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2014-06-07 Refurbishing the subframe

Post by Artiz1 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:45 pm

Thank you for for the tips on the steering rack removal - it's so easy, 5 minutes and the rack is out:
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On monday it will be submitted for testing to a local hydraulics specialist.

Then the subframe followed:
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Then I removed everything on it, scraped the dirt off, removed the rust and cleaned it with brake cleaner:
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Coated with thick zinc coat:
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And applied the first coat of satin black paint:
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While the paint dried, I continued with the anti roll bar. Scrubing, rubbing, cleaning etc was the same, just I did not use zinc this time, but just a regular ptimer:
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And some red caliper paint:
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Last job for the day were the anti roll bar bush brackets:
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Satin black for them as well :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

164 TD
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Posts: 1204
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 3:13 pm
Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by 164 TD » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:15 am

Keep those pictures coming!

I love the project!
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2014-06-15: Preparing the front end

Post by Artiz1 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:37 pm

Ok, this week was very productive, because I got my steering rack reconditioned. I dropped it off on monday at the local rack specialists and on tuesday they already phoned me asking to come over - my rack had a very worn housing, especially at the spot where the input shaft goes. The gyus have been very disapointed as they said they could not help me as they could not find another such rack. Lucky for me, I had another one as a spare (received it with the car). I gave it to them and next day (on wednesday) they already called me asking to take back the reconditioned rack. 100 Euros and a 1 years warranty in my opinion is very good :) Once I told that I won't install it in the near future, they said that if I will bring it unused after three months and show it to them, they will extend the warranty for those three months more! Could not get any better!

Anyway, today I removed all final parts, that were in the way for me to prepare the fron end and treat it against rust. I took all the brake pipes out (since they will be replaced anyway):
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And took the brake master cylinder out as well (it would just be stupid if I would not change it right now):
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Removed last suspension components and I pretty much have a nice access to anywhere I need inside the engine bay:
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And to have the same access outside the engine bay, I took both front wings out as well:
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Now the full rust prevention treatment has started. I will shave off any rust marks, coat these places with zink, prime them and paint athe whole engine bay in black (since I yet don't know the colour of the car, that I will later go for. But I know that it will be a dark one).
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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alfa east
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by alfa east » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:52 am

Remains an impressive job. You got a great deal on the reconditioning of the steering rack. I paid almost double that here in Thailand where labour costs are (also?) low. And....mine is leaking again after only a couple of years.

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JDqv
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by JDqv » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:31 pm

Looks like you are doing very similar things to what I'm doing with my 164 in LV :lol:
I'll copy your idea and remove my front wings too, to check for possible rust. Somehow didn't think of it.

:?:
Tell me this, as I genuinely don't understand and it seems to me weird, why did you choose a diesel? Are you planing to use it as daily driver?

I'm building mine only for sunny Sundays.
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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Artiz1
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by Artiz1 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:07 pm

JDqv - exactly, I'm fed up with weekend cars. I want a propper Alfa, that can be driven as a daily driver :) When I lived in UK, I had a V6 164 and then a V6 166 as daily drivers as well, but as soon as I returned back home, the 166 was too expensive to own, so I now went for a diesel.
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Artiz1
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Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by Artiz1 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:35 pm

JDqv wrote:Looks like you are doing very similar things to what I'm doing with my 164 in LV :lol:
I'll copy your idea and remove my front wings too, to check for possible rust. Somehow didn't think of it.
Here's a little tip: for some reason (at least on my car) the italians have forgotten to put some kind of protective coat on the welds, actually on the spots were they did the spot welding. I have this feeling, after removing the wings and looking at the frama - it looks like a teenagers face - all covered in spots :) And these tend to be only in the places where there have been factory welds. Even if I could not see any visible rust, I shaved of some paint and still found some underneath...
Also that beige-orange-brownish (whatever... glue that they used to hold the sheetmetal together when welding is contributing to corrosion as well - I found some places, where rust developed underneath that stuff...
So at the end of the day, removing the wings is a good idea (at least on my car) :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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Artiz1
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2014-06-21: rust treatment

Post by Artiz1 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:03 pm

Rust, say hello to my little friends! :)
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That should do it!

Two final components that were in my way before I proceed with rust treatment were the false firewall:
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After removal I pulled out about a half bucket of leaves from the inside of the firewall... I guess it will contribute to better fuel economy :)

And the last one - the power steering oil cooler:
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Now for the actual rust treatment. At first, I do have to mention that last week I sprayed loads of rust modifier on pretty much everywhere and left it to do it's job over the week. Today I started from the floor pan. I cleaned the surface where the subframe and the reinforcement plates bolt to the floor pan and inspected it for rust:
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I was expecting a much worse view... It seems that the original stuff that alfa put for protection did it's job very well!

Even after removing the drain plug, I could not find any rust:
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The only rust spots were where the original protective coat was missing - typical italians - forgot to coat the inner wheel arches:
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And this is how the inner side of the strut lookes like when cleaned a little bit:
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I had two choises for the protective coat - either Dinitrol or Hammerite. Both are very good and proven to work (I've seen cars treated with both after 10 years of usage in our salty winters). I chose Dinitrol, because they have a product which not only acts as a protection, but is elastic and serves as a sound insulation layer as well. These cars have suficient sound insulation, however that little extra does not hurt :) So this is how the wheel arch looks like coated in Dinitrol:
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Then the rest got coated in zink, then primed and the everything got painted in satin black:
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I also cleaned, primed and painted the engine mounting brackets in between:
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This will be the colour in which the block and most of the engine components will be finnished. This is the same colour as they use at Nanni diesel to paint their marine engines (http://www.nannidiesel.com/products/planing.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I've seen these engines and I loved the colour. I know it might seem a little bit too much, but bare with me and you'll see how it will look like in the end - trust me on this one - it won't be a boy racer's car...
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

164 TD
Q4 owner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 3:13 pm
Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Bringing back a 164 2.5 TD to life

Post by 164 TD » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:48 am

It takes forever to load those pictures, but it is a joy to watch your project!

Do you do the whole job by yourself or do you have a second pair of hands?
TD en Q4 owner

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