Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

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JDqv
Posts: 24
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Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Thu May 29, 2014 10:19 am

I think its time to introduce you all to what I'm doing for last few months in the dark corner of garage.
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Story started few years ago with me buying 1993 164 24v with blown engine. Car was in good condition, perfect candidate for engine swap. Last owner said that engine with motronic was swapped from QV.
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Old, blown engine:
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After few attempts to find original donor engine, I decided to opt for 166 engine which was available.
Removed old one, restored front subframe (removed rust, primed and painted), placed 166 engine on using engine brackets from 166, for now everything looks right and I can see no potential problems space wise.
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To solve rpm sensor problem (sensor on 166 reads form flywheel), I laser cut timing crown from 4mm steal and plan to screw it on original 164 flywheel. Concept is proven to work with other flywheel from automatic gearbox.
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Rear engine mount bracket must be used from 166, because oil inlet for filter doesn't fit with 164 bracket , there is a gap on engine block side. Also oil radiator hoses must be used from 166 because of a different connection angles on 166 bracket.

All intake part of engine comes form 164.

We connected it to 164 motronic, attached hoses and tested it while engine is still on the ground under the car, and it works. Idle seems a little high, but I don't want to run the engine too long, don't trust the old timing belt and tensioner, plus there is no cooling at this stage.
Engine start video: http://youtu.be/djiDMB89w-w

Next I plan to change water pump and belts and only then bolt it on.

Donor cars involved:
166 1998 engine donor
166 (burned down)
164 12v 3.0 1993
and unknown valve 164 3.0 1995 which I plan to buy today (owner says it has only minor cluch problems)
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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Alfan
Q4 owner
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by Alfan » Thu May 29, 2014 5:49 pm

Welcome and thanks for sharing the work you have done - that is looking really good :D

I hope that getting it back in will work out well. Also that unknown spec 164 sounds interesting!
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Thu May 29, 2014 10:42 pm

Saw the mysterious car today, sad looking 164, sits in grass for at least 4years. Owner thinks its 24v but I couldn't confirm it because he has lost the keys and car is locked. Waiting for him to find them, if not, will have to breake in. Car is pure donor material, after 4 years in moist grass any 164 is pretty much dead and not worth restoring. Looks pretty though...Image
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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alfa east
3.0 V6 24V automatic
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Location: Bangkok

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by alfa east » Fri May 30, 2014 3:54 am

Impressive job; always amazed by the skill of enthusiasts here.

164 TD
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by 164 TD » Fri May 30, 2014 12:05 pm

Craftmanship!

Keep the stories coming!
TD en Q4 owner

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:14 pm

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Belts, water pump and stuff...
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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alfa east
3.0 V6 24V automatic
Posts: 1130
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:26 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by alfa east » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:23 am

Yes, great photo!

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:48 am

Parts arrived, only thing left to wait for is flywheel modification.Image
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:59 am

Flywheel is done. Trigger wheel is sunked in stock 164 Flywheel (4mm depth).

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There is small concern about balance, but I hope it will be ok.
I have one spare laser cut trigger wheel for future projects. But if anyone needs such a thing, its available. (It wont fit as spare for flywheels with original trigger wheel, but then agin, I cant imagine what could happen to it)

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Yesterday we changed timing belt and waterpump. Had to bore out one of the pulleys bolts, otherwise it went good.
I invited a specialist with camshaft locks and top dead center meter thingy to help me with this as I dont believe in god (timing belt assembly by markings)

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Note to self and warning to others. Always choose water pump with metal rotor part. Plastic ones tend to fracture due to wast temperature changes. I've heard a story about 156 GTA with overheat problems. Water pumps rotor was hairline cracked so that every thing seemed alright by naked eye, only rotor inside was standing still while only axis on which the rotor is pressed on rotated. As far as I know, Hepu and Bugatti has metal rotors.

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And finally a fun story.
Right before I first started this engine (as seen in video from first post), I opened intake butterfly for no reason and poked my fingers in... And found this (pic below). :lol: Whole intake manifold was full of small metal shavings from old blown engine. It was a close call. Had to disassemble and clean it. This could be perfect keying, or lucky charm. I bet I wouldnt realize why exacly my new engine blew up on first start.

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________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

164 TD
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Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by 164 TD » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:47 am

I'm pretty familiar with the Busso engine but I cannot make anything out of it; what is it?
TD en Q4 owner

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:53 pm

Its part of torn piston which came through valve opening to inlet manifold and stopped only near butterfly valve when old engine went bananas. :wink:
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

164 TD
Q4 owner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 3:13 pm
Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by 164 TD » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:33 pm

Holy crap! That part made quite a journey!
TD en Q4 owner

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:41 pm

Wanted to do something nice and in fresh air in my lunch brake today. So I went to the country side to look at the birds... and stumbled on the same old black 164 super that I was looking at earlier this month.

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So by this strange coincidence I bought it. Owner had found the lost keys. It turned out to be 12V. Overall great donor car.
It has black leather seats, standard, better steering wheel, self dimming mirror, and whole bunch of parts that I need. Nice alloys as bonus. Probably will sell them.

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Im prepared to do all the wireing to fit that mirror, probably only to find out that its leaking :lol: but still, its worth a try.

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Also, very nice bonus was original tool case in the trunk, and original car jack with 164 silhouette on it.

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I dont have a clue what is this device on rear window. Maybe some sort of strange antena... it must be... Anyone?

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Well... at the end of the day, its good feeling about this car. 164 frenzy
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

j.k.QV
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by j.k.QV » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:15 pm

I had a dream...
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...oh well, I guess it's not meant to be :(

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Alfan
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by Alfan » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:24 pm

What a nice lunch break 8)

I would guess that the cables are already there for the mirror. The part in the rear window is most likely for an antenna. I have a similar one (not original, I believe) with the antenna glued to the outside of the window.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:33 pm

That must be it, only antenna is missing on the other side.
This car has suspicious looking sensor behind the mirror that looks like rain sensor. Could it be?
At first I thought its aftermarket, but sensor unit is made by bosch and has original looking wire connection. No controls on the panel though.


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never mind the bird poop
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________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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Alfan
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Location: Denmark
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by Alfan » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:49 pm

I don't know that Bosch unit, but the 900/1800 I would think could relate to the GSM band frequencies, so something for a cell phone and therefore aftermarket.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

User avatar
JDqv
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:59 pm

Ok, Ill follow the wireing to find out what is what on that thing. But sounds logical ... It might be a gsm antena. Thanks.
The last weird thing was hiding under the hood, some sort of blue device that Ive never seen before. Turned out it was aftermarket cruise control unit http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/e ... se-Control
Everything else is as usual on 164's.
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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JDqv
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:33 pm

j.k.QV wrote:I had a dream...
Image
...oh well, I guess it's not meant to be :(
black is the new red, im not throwing away the idea of repainting roof and back of my red one to get this one from dreams to reality.
Red is nice, black is such much so gooder...

For those few, who care, this is the "new" black donor 164 with red's wheels from garage.
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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JDqv
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:22 pm

Well, I'm back. After a long brake, I managed to get back to this project last weekend. Winter is coming fast.
Last week gearbox was screwed on and sub frame with engine on rolled back under the car and was bolted on.
Next goal is to get the wheels back on, so that I can roll it around. Other than that - wiring, and plumbing is last main things left to do. But I'm fairly confident. There are couple things still missing that is needed from 166, like upper engine mount with bracket and oil vapor separator, plus of course - custom hoses for radiator. I plan to use original radiator and route coolant lines somehow to the other side of engine. but... I'll worry about that when time comes...
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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JDqv
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:20 pm

Today I did all fwd alfa romeo v6 fun jobs. Everything behind engine got connected, routed and bolted on... Starter, alternator, steering rack, wireing, oil lines... it was "fun". My arms are swolen and I'm glad its over. Any work on before mentioned parts is pure torture or at least circus stunt. 164 v6 might be one of the most frustrating cars to work on. But I still loved it.
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

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Artiz1
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:55 pm

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by Artiz1 » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:36 pm

Nice job! Depending on which part of Latvia you are in, I might help you our with custom silicone hoses - I make them, so if you won't find anything suitable, I can custom make them for your installation :)
'97 164 Super 2.5TD - donor car;
'97 164 Super 3.0L 12V Automatic - in assembly process;

('16 Skoda Octavia - daily driver)

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JDqv
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Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by JDqv » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:06 am

164 frenzy continues...
1994 164 2.0 TS shell added to donor list... engine dosent belong to me, but frankly all I need is shell anyway.

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Main gain from this is pretty good rear subframe with brake regulator, wooden steeringwheel and maybe radiator with upper inlet on drivers side. Its capacity might be too poor for 3.0 though.
________
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V 1994 (WIP)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1993 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 12V 1995 (donor)
Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 TS 1994 (donor)

164 TD
Q4 owner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 3:13 pm
Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Alfa 164 24v 166 engine swap

Post by 164 TD » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:17 pm

Nice job!
TD en Q4 owner

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