Saab 9000 TQ4

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RickyManfred
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Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:25 pm

Hello Everyone

I hope it is OK to present my project here despite the fact that is not a 164, not even an Alfa, but a sibling using the "same" chassis - a Saab 9000 Talladega. The car was a special model made in a limited number from 1988 to 1990, my car is from 1989 and had a whopping 20hp more than the standard 9000T of that time. Another thing special on this model was the body kit, called Saab Airflow, that was standard on this model. It was also equipped with almost all options you could have at that time, only thing mine was missing was a glass sunroof. I bought this car back in 1999 and did some work on it already then, bigger turbo, adjustable suspension etc. But since 2004 it has been stored disassembled in my garage.
large_3687-9711-9664.jpg
Heres how the car looked like back in 1999-2000 or something.
Now to the Alfa part of the story. I've been thinking of building a 4 wheel drive Saab 9000 for a long time, I've always known that the Saab 9000 is closely related to the Alfa 164 and that there was an Q4 model available. So this felt like a good starting point, I did some more research and found out that the Getrag gearbox should also be very reliable having no problem working with high torques, couldn't really find any reports on broken viscomatic units either so it felt like the natural choice of transmission to use.
I started searching the internet for a donor car but since this car was never sold in Sweden where I live it was hard finding one, there was one or two cars for sale but in too good condition to be scrapped. I know it is a rare model so I didn't want to destroy something that was fixable. Instead I found a guy who just had an ad out for lots of parts for different Alfa models, I just wrote him a short email asking if he had any parts from the 164 Q4 model and the answer was that he had two Q4's he was selling parts from at the moment and had already scrapped a third one but kept most transmission parts. He had all the main parts so just after new year I went there to have a look. Came back home with one gear box including shifter and linkage, one complete rear suspension and one extra viscomatic rear axle, two viscomatic ECU's, ABS-unit, G-sensors, fuel tank, front spindles with drive shafts, two cardan shafts, hydraulic unit and lots of other stuff.

Since then I have done the following.
I have disassembled the rear brake callipers and removed all rust using electrolysis and now I'm trying to find a rebuild kit, all parts seems to be in good condition, I just need new seals. I've also done the same to the hydraulic valve unit, took it apart completely and the housing has been in the same electrolysis bath to remove the rust, it's ready for paint now.
Right now I'm working on fitting the fuel tank and the rear suspension to the car, even if they share the same basic platform there are some differences, the whole floor in the trunk had to go to make room for the tank.
IMG_0370.JPG
Removed the floor to make room for the tank, the part covering the tank will be cut out from one of the donor Q4's. forward of the trunk the the fuel tank fits perfectly without cutting. Same shape on the floor here on both the Saab and the Q4.
IMG_0123.JPG
Disassembly of the hydraulic valves.
IMG_0131.JPG
"baking" of the rear callipers after electrolysis to remove any remains of hydrogen from the process.
IMG_0376.JPG
Trying to figure out how to mount the rear suspension, I have some measuring and thinking to do...
So that's it for now, I hope you don't mind me hangin around here and I'll do my best to contribute as well. Trying to fit all these parts both mechanically and electronically to the car will also give me lot of knowledge about the Q4 as well.

Best Regard
Fredrik
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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AlfaWhiz
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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by AlfaWhiz » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:20 pm

Fredrik, this is fantastic! :D Absolutely loving it, keep it going and by all means keep us posted!

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by 164 TD » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:16 pm

Keep us posted!

The Q4 has a slightly different bottomplate than all other 164's, wonder what kind of problems you are running in.
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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:58 pm

Don't know what the difference is between Q4 and other 164's but what the differences is between Q4 and Saab 9000 I will find out I guess :D
I can tell you that the trunk floor differs as well as the shape of the beams where the rear axle is mounted, but the distance between them seems to be just about the same so I think it will be more of a work modifying them than relocating them. The rear wheel arches differs a lot too, mostly where the shocks are mounted. The Saab has a different solution with separated shocks/springs.
In the front it's more similar. The subframe and even the engine looks like they are in the same position, haven't measured it though. It seems like the strut top mounts in the front is a bit further back on the Q4 for more caster.
2565i4o.jpg
Top mount on a 9000. Not mine.
IMG_0387.JPG
Where the top mount is supposed to be on the Q4. Here on one of the cars I buy parts from.
Tomorrows Saturday, if there's time I'll try to get some work done on my build.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Alfan
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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:49 pm

Welcome :)

That is a very interesting project! I have heard a lot of people wanting to modify a FWD 164 to Q4, especially in the US, but never heard of anyone actually doing it. So please keep us informed about your project, as it sounds very interesting.

Be aware that the Q4 4WD uses the ABS system, maybe there could be a conflict with the control to the ECU's?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Hi Alfan

I took most parts of the ABS system from the donor cars but the ABS control unit showed up to be wrong type (0 265 204 005). Found one on a scrap yard online last week so this one has been ordered instead, this one should be right (0 265 204 007), but it was sold as untested.

One thing that worries me is the connection to engine control. According to the manuals I found here it needs rpm and throttle position signal from Motronic. I can not use Motronic on my engine, or I don't want to since it has Trionic which is possible to tune by yourself.
The throttle position signal is PWM. I don't know how to emulate this yet but I have to figure something out, I don't think there is anything like this from the Saab Trionic system.
I don't know what the RPM signal looks like yet but I hope the difference in cylinders doesn't make a difference. It's supposed to be the same signal as the in dash rpm meter uses.

manuals/Q4/Q4_wiring/Q4_-_Motronic_3.7/ ... age_07.jpg
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:18 am

A new ABS-unit arrived from a scrap yard and I also have the servo pump from the same car. Both parts are in really good condition.
IMG_0402.JPG
Servo pump and ABS unit
Here is a link to the remains of this Q4 from where I got above parts: http://www.bildelsbasen.se/?company_id= ... id=9830099 I won der what happened to it, look at the gear box for example, it seems to be in really good condition as well. So if you need anything just buy it, I had no problems at all ordering online etc.

About my build then? This week has mostly been about restoring different parts. Right now I'm working on the rear suspension arms but I have also dissassembled the viscomatic hydraulic group and de-rusted the whole housing using electrolysis bath. I can give you some before and after pictures when I have painted the thing. I'm looking for new O-rings now before I'm painting the thing.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by 164 TD » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:07 pm

Does the scrapper has a red codekey?

If not, the motronic is a real interesting part.
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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:41 pm

I talked to them earlier this week about some other unlisted parts but got the answer that what was listed online was pretty much what they had. But the woman answering my questions wasn't sure if they still had the car or if it was pressed already. It's 930km for me one way to go there and have a look so that's not an option.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Engine » Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 pm

Maybe a little help. I've posted something on the Dutch 164 register. I took some pictures of a SAAB 9000 in the SAAB museum to compare against my 164. Note that I have a TwinSpark so without AWD.

SAAB
Image
Image
Image
Image

My 164
Image
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Image

So in words: the subframe mounts are at the same position. However the Alfa uses ~1cm thick plates in between the body and the subframe to bring the powertrain to a lower position. Was need to make the engine fit under the more sloped bonnet. For the same reason the struts are mounted differently; in what you thought was more caster. It's a bit more complex. The strut of the Alfa mounts at the front of the hub instead of at the top of the hub (the more conventional way and also that what the SAAB has).
The subframe front part of a bit different but not by much. Just for the parts where the radiator support goes (and the Alfa has a "funny" placement of the ABS). The rear is also a bit different since the mounting of the steering rack differs. Haven't looked at a Q4 that detailed however I assume that the rear part of the subframe and the steering rack mounting may be different for the Q4 against the FWD versions.
Rest of the subframe is the same. Even the lower suspension arms seem identical. As well the torsion bar.

Interesting project.
3-cil: 2006 Citroen C1
4-cil: 1997 Alfa Romeo 164 Super TS (fully restored)
5-cil: 2003 Volvo XC70 (daily)
6-cil: 1979 Volkswagen LT35D (campervan)
8-cil: 1988 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe (c4)

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Fri May 22, 2015 8:48 pm

Thank you for the info Engine

About the front suspension I think I'll start with spindles and struts from the 164 to see where it all ends up, if it doesn't work this seems like the easier part of this project, lots of parts to combine to get it right and as you write, the arms and the subframe is almost identical. There's no need to lower the subframe here since I'll be using a Saab engine but from a newer 9000CS model, I've already bought myself a CS subframe since I was told there is a difference, not sure what though but it was cheap. Now I only need to modify it for the Getrag and the cardan shaft :-) For the steering I'll use original 9000 rack with a separate steering angle sensor mounted somewhere, it's just analogue signal to the Viscomatic anyway, not that hard to emulate. The Q4 racks are way to expensive and if I find a cheap one I'd rather tell you guys here about it than modifying it to fit the 9000 subframe.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:33 pm

Hi all!

Just writing to let you know this project is still going on. Not much have happened though, some parts I need are very hard to find and I lost interest for a while. But now I have started again, rectangular tubes 70x40x3 will probably arrive next week so I can start rebuilding the rear to mount the Q4 rear suspension.
I also found new wheel hubs at an online parts dealer, really cheap, like 12€ each so I ordered all four. Part no was matching Eper so hopefully they'll fit.

When I start welding I'll post some pictures again, hopefully soon.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:30 pm

Good to hear that you are back on track :)

Looking forward to the end result!
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:41 pm

I have been having fun disassembling the 6-speed Getrag, but I'm stuck, can't get the reverse gear shaft out. I guess there is something, a bolt? a locking ring? behind what I think is an end seal. I have attached a photo, this is from the bell housing side. Any ideas?
Attachments
IMG_1254.jpg
End seal?
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:51 pm

RickyManfred wrote:I have been having fun disassembling the 6-speed Getrag, but I'm stuck, can't get the reverse gear shaft out. I guess there is something, a bolt? a locking ring? behind what I think is an end seal. I have attached a photo, this is from the bell housing side. Any ideas?
I don't know how it is put together. I am going to the garage Saturday, where the old gearbox from my Q4 is. It is somewhat disassembled, so maybe photos can help.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:05 pm

Hi Alfan

That would be great, Only thing I can't figure out how to take apart is this haft for the reverse gear. If it had been a Saab gearbox I would have used brute force because I know I can get new parts, but here I think its better to be careful.

Just to clarify, the reverse gear shaft is stuck in it's bearing at the bell housing side. I think the black thing (end seal?) has to be pulled out, but that would most likely mean destroying it and I don't know its dimensions, or if it even is a standard end seal. When it is removed there should be something holding it all together.

Some progress then, I have using much brute force managed to disassemble the rear wheel spindles. They are now rust free and new wheel hubs and bearings (VKBA 1488) is hopefully arriving soon. Will post pictures of them when they're painted and put together.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:50 pm

I found this picture http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technica ... p46B-9.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that confirmed my suspicion there was a bolt holding the reverse gear shaft to the bearing. I removed the end seal and then removing the shaft was no problem. I've also identified most bearings inside that I want to replace and ordered some of them. The seals seems to be standard ones as well except for the drive shaft seals, those I haven't found yet except specifically for 164 Q4 and that means lots of $$$.

I received some parts today as well.
IMG_1304.jpg
4 brand new wheel hubs and 2 wheel bearing kits
IMG_1305.jpg
I haven't bought any bearings for the front wheels yet, I need to decide what spindle I'll use first. If I decide to use Saab spindles I will probably use the same bearings but I want to do some measurements first. The standard Saab bearings are bought complete with wheel hub as a unit and then bolted to the spindle using 4 screws, to manufacture an adapter that use another bearing shouldn't be that complicated.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:34 pm

RickyManfred wrote:I found this picture http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technica ... p46B-9.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that confirmed my suspicion there was a bolt holding the reverse gear shaft to the bearing. I removed the end seal and then removing the shaft was no problem. I've also identified most bearings inside that I want to replace and ordered some of them. The seals seems to be standard ones as well except for the drive shaft seals, those I haven't found yet except specifically for 164 Q4 and that means lots of $$$.

I received some parts today as well.

I haven't bought any bearings for the front wheels yet, I need to decide what spindle I'll use first. If I decide to use Saab spindles I will probably use the same bearings but I want to do some measurements first. The standard Saab bearings are bought complete with wheel hub as a unit and then bolted to the spindle using 4 screws, to manufacture an adapter that use another bearing shouldn't be that complicated.
Well, here are the photos I took, anyway, though I don't know if they show more.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bbgch3wizbw3 ... kfB6a?dl=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the photos of the part numbers for what you have bought :) where did you buy them?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:43 pm

Hi

Wheel hubs here: https://www.skruvat.se/Hjulnav-P56983.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bearings from Ebay.com user car-on-do, which is this site: http://www.carondo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:05 pm

Been busy disassembling and not the least cleaning the gearbox. I'm doing it carefully and take photos of everything since there's no manuals or documentation available as far as I know. I have started to make a list of bearings and seals as I remove them, thought I could just as well share it with you guys.

Seal incoming shaft: 26x47x9
Bearing incoming shaft, flywheel side: to be identified
Bearing incoming shaft, outer end: SKF 6306-2RZNTN9/C3VB277 (with track for retaining ring)
Bearing gear shaft, flywheel side: to be identified
Bearing gear shaft, outer end: SKF 6306-2RZNTN9/C3VB277 (with track for retaining ring)
Bearing reverse shaft, flywheel side: SKF 6306 ETN9/C3
End seal, reverse shaft, flywheel side: End cap 52x7
Bearing reverse shaft, outer end: FAG 810-7857 28x37x20 (needle bearing with drawn cup, odd size!)
Bearings differential/driveshafts: SKF 32009X-QVB004
Inner bearing between diff. and cardan shaft output: SKF 32009X-Q
Inner seal between diff. and cardan shaft output: BAFUD2 DRRX23 44,5-60-6,5 CFW 2
Outer seal between diff. and cardan shaft output: BAFUD2 DRLX23 44,5-62-6,5/8,5 CFW
Outer bearing between diff. and cardan shaft output: SKF 32207-Q
Inner bearing, cardan output shaft: SKF 32009X-Q
Outer bearing, cardan output shaft: SKF 32006-X/QU2
Seal cardan shaft output: 38-60-10/7

Thats it for now, I have already bought the odd bearings at the outer end of input and gear shafts, the exact specification was not available anymore, not it's replacement either. My contact at SKF said the VB277 parts shouldn't make much of a difference so I've bought two 6306-NTN9/C3 bearings, they are not sealed as the original ones but I cannot see why they need to be?

I will add to the list if and when I identify more parts, there's nothing wrong with any of the remaining bearings but I might replace them just in case.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Alfan
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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:48 pm

Thanks for the info, very good to know :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:45 pm

Small update

When i restored the rear wheel spindles I was unaware of the fact that the ABS sensors was not produced anymore and just drilled/hammered them out.
So now I bought another set of spindles with ABS sensors. Managed to remove them and they still seem to work, both have same resistance and produce DC voltage when moving a metallic object in front of them, but I had to cut around the sensors in the spindles to get them out.
IMG_1752.JPG
Rear sensors, removed, tested and cleaned.
IMG_1753.JPG
Had to cut just deep enough to be able to crack it, then bend a little to make the hole a little bigger.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:20 pm

That is one thing I never managed to do, they broke when trying to get them out - but they might also have been a bit more worn...
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by RickyManfred » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:42 pm

Update!

Been busy now a few days doing measurements of how to mate the gearbox with the engine, found a scrap engine on the interweb to use as a mockup. Got myself another gearbox to use when measuring too.

So I placed a later model Saab 9000 subframe on some bricks to get some clearance from the garage floor, then cut of the Saab gearbox mount and measured on a cut-off from the Q4 subframe and drilled/tapped M8 holes in the same spot where they are on the Q4 subframe. Then I placed the gearbox onto the subframe to get a rough estimate of where to cut for the driveshaft output. When this was done I placed the mockup engine block onto the subframe to see where stuff ends up. It seems the crank of the 9000 is more forward than in the Alfa, hard to measure but I definitely need to either move the gearbox forward or the engine backwards to get it right, it's not by much, maybe 10mm. Right now I'm considering moving the gearbox forward, since that would hopefully just require some spacer on the driveshaft output and I would not need to make 3 new engine mounts. Another nice surprise was that there is room for an adapter, there's about 10mm between engine and gearbox.
IMG_1932.JPG
Engine, gearbox and cutout for driveshaft output.
IMG_1933.JPG
View from opposite side
Bought myself a donor car as well, this is a 98 9000 with the mighty B234R engine, 225hp and 342Nm. Rusty and ugly but everything works and it runs great.
IMG_1934.JPG
Donor car for engine and electrical system
Over and out.
"Salfa Romeaab" James May

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Alfan
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Re: Saab 9000 TQ4

Post by Alfan » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:58 pm

Seems like you have all the parts now?

I guess it is easier to move the gearbox. What about the link to the rear, I can't recall if you already figured out how that will fit?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 175kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 90kkm

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