164 Q4 1994

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wilco
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:18 pm

no, It's really the part thats in the cylinder and hits the piston inthere.
the shaft has the bal shape on it, the piston has the joint.

here a drawing i made to give you an idea.
Image
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:36 pm

wilco wrote:it's the pin that goes into the clutch cilnder'
Ok, so I got confused.
Am I correct saying that you mean the "Clutch Pump"?

It is shown - together with the Clutch Master Cylinder - in the figure from the Mechanical Manual

Image

In the overview from EPER the Clutch Master Cylinder is the red arrow, but you mean the green arrow.

Image

That item makes sense, since it sits in the location, which I diagnosted.

What has to be lubricated?
The fixture, which connects it to the clutch pedal or the pin in the cylinder? (I have not yet looked at it and do not know, what has to be taken away to gain access - it's a lousy working place down there under the steering wheel :evil:)
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:37 pm

Sorry Wilco, we doubled!

Now it is clear.
Many thanks!!
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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wilco
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:37 am

:) you're welcome :)
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by 164 TD » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:03 am

It's funny that Alfa call the "slave" cilinder the "master" cilinder to make it all confusing.
TD en Q4 owner

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wilco
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:15 am

yea, you would say, the master forces the slave..
i guess in Italy, the slave has more rights then the master :P
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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alfa east
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by alfa east » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:41 pm

Wilco, you watch too much gladiator-movies....

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wilco
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:53 pm

ok thnx, i'll try to decrease it ;)
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by didod » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:50 pm

On my car, and other 2 164-s and one Lancia Kappa the problem was in the pin, connecting pedal with clutch master cylinder (pump). So you can try this first. There is no need to disassemble anything. :)
164 Super T. Spark //Base '95 + (Vialle LPi) + VDO Cruise control + ...// - Image
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Rear Brake

Post by Helli » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:56 pm

I was not working on my project for some week, the Q4 was running nicely and I had other things to do.

Then in mid-December the Heater/Ventilation blower stopped.
Since I was fishing for information I treated this, and still do, in the Technical Section.

After New Year, on a 500km cold drive (no blower-remember?) home from Switzerland the left rear brake
started scratching, metal on metal Image
I never downshifted so much in my life. But I had to step on the brake just too often.

Back home I inspected the damage.
The right brake pad is totally gone, the piston is locked and the disk is grooved.

Image

I dismantled the components and found the following parts.
...-.. Calipers (Lucas) with a 43mm piston.
...-.. vented disks, ~ 20mm thick
...-..break pads with width=90mm, thickness ~17mm.

First I ordered new calipers and new disks.
I did not know yet that the "standard" rear calipers for the 230 hp 164 have 38mm pistons.
The disks had the right diameter dimensions, but were not vented and therefore are too thin.

The new calipers do not allow brake pads 17mm thick, only 12mm.

Therefore I got 12mm thick brake pads - of course always and all for the 164 Q4 :mrgreen:
But they are much to wide.

Stalemate.
In order to get the car back on the road I got new 17mm thick pads and made them fit by reducing their thickness to app. 12mm. (nice work).
Then I used the new calipers and the old vented thick disks - nicely cleaned, smoothed and polished.

And now the car is safely running on the new snow, which plentifully came last night :)

But this is only a temporary repair. I still need new calipers and new disks.
I searched the Internet the whole of Saturday, but I was not successful yet.

Are there any rear brake experiences with the Q4 around here?
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:07 pm

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has worked without problems since, also in the snow we have here from time to time.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:30 pm

How could I have missed this when I searched the forums.

Many thanks Allen for the quick response.
So the correct discs are still availble.

What do you know about the brake calipers from the Alfa source?
Helli
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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:43 pm

I don't know how you could have missed it either :wink: At least some things are still possible to get from Alfa.

I helped scrapping a Q4 some years ago and got the front and rear calipers from it, which I had reconditioned. Apart from the shop not doing a proper job first time round (not testing their work, really hate that approach to things), it has worked since. I think the calipers were replaced 3 or 4 years ago and has worked fine since. I don't know of getting new ones, but I would think that if you know of a shop doing this, it should be possible to have done quite fast.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:20 pm

Well, I better be more specific.
In the Alfa shop, where you got your disks, they have also calipers. But they do not display any specific measurements and the Alfa model filter is pretty vague namely "Calipers 164 > 1992 rear" for "164/Super".
And we know, that the Q4 has special calipers.

Have you had direct contact with them?
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by 164 TD » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:47 am

The rearbrakes are really easy to dissasable, to clean and derust in a selfmade electrolitic bath and to put back together. All the seals can be reused.

We started a topic at the dutch site; when I'm done in china, I will translate the topic in english and safe us all a few bucks.

rearbrakerefurbish

electrolitic derusting
TD en Q4 owner

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:57 pm

164 TD wrote: I will translate the topic in english and safe us all a few bucks.
The Dutch postings look very promising, as far as I could follow :D
I am looking forward for your summary in English.
Many thanks
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:20 pm

I found Q4 brake disks for the rear axle from an Internet automotive parts distributor.
I have reported this in the other "rear brake"- thread (viewtopic.php?f=2&p=7129#p7129

Since I was not so successful for the related calipers, I will have to repair the old ones.
People tell me not to give them away, they are very precious :wink:
Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:53 pm

Just in time, after the provisorily repair of the rear brakes, the new blower motor arrived and I started with the task to get the old one out.
ImageOur American collegues discussed and reported several methods to do this.
Their methods have two things in common, namely
....(1)...to take out the "False Firewall" (FFW), which separates the A/C & Heating system from the engine
....(2)...to remove the windscreen wiper assembly incl. motor
Both actions are intended to provide more working space.
"Alfisto Steve" wrote a procedure for the FFW-takeout, which consists of 23 steps Image
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/957429-post74.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I do not know for which engine he wrote that. It could not be the 3Liter 231 horsepower beast of the Q's.
I expected a nightmare and was finished in about 20 minutes. :)

- On the bottom edge the Q4 FFW has several clamps, which sit on a rim ("Kante"), no screws.
- On the top edge there are 4 screws, one on each corner and two in the middle, holding a smal strut towards the wiper assembly (red arrow "A").

Image

- Next item is the big round connector (blue arrow "B1"), which must be disconnected and the long end pulled out of the FFW through the hole (blue arrow "B2").
The adjacent fuse is unscrewed from the FFW.

- The third item are two clamps which hold two hoses to the FFW (green arrow "C"), better seen in the left picture below.

Image

- Finally the 12V lead-through, which also acts as fixture for two 40A-fuses for the water cooling fan (yellow arrow "D1") and for the blower motor (yellow arrow "D2") has to be taken off.

:mrgreen: Now, with the help of two additional hands the FWW can be wriggled out of the clamp seats.
Just don't claim anymore, that everything on a Q4 is more complex and cumbersome!!

- The removal of the windscreen wiper assembly is done exactly as Steve explains it in his write-up quoted above.
Also this task is fairly simple and straightforward and does not take more than 20 minutes.

And there it is, the housing which harbours the culprit.

Image

How to get the motor out I will discuss in the next posting.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:23 am

Great that you got it fixed and not having too much trouble doing it! Now mine is not working and I think it is because of more than one problem, as there was a loose connection up to this point. Well, at least I mostly drive motorway at the moment, so air is coming in, I just need to crank up the temp :wink:
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:41 pm

Strange Anomaly in the ABS

In between the "regular" work on the project I want to report a strange "anomaly, which I found, when using the Marelli Tester with my "new" M30-A-module (yesterday was a bright sunny afternoon :) ).

Important to state, that there is no ABS-anomaly sign on the dashboard, and as far as I have noticed on our snow-covered roads the ABS is working properly.

The Tester gave me 2 parameter values, which are not correct
- the "Clutch Pedal Switch" H21 stays "closed" all the time (probabely a small repair)
- the "Longitudinal Accelerometer" N62 gives a reading of 2.9 m/s² and the car is stationary, the "Traversal Accelerometer" N61 gives a reading of 0.0 m/s² .

These values the ABS ECU apparently does not consider to be failures. Otherwise the dashboard signal would be active. But it goes out when the motor is running.

I guess I will have to measure the signals on the connections of the accelerometer and the clutch switch.
Presently it is snowing hard, I have to wait for the next sunshine.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:46 pm

Helli wrote:Strange Anomaly in the ABS

- the "Longitudinal Accelerometer" N62 gives a reading of 2.9 m/s² and the car is stationary, the "Traversal Accelerometer" N61 gives a reading of 0.0 m/s² .
I don't know if this problem would affect an FWD 164 or this is in relation to how the 4WD system will react. But I guess test 'L' in the ABS section is the one of interest here. I hope you find an explanation, but it's a good thing that the system still works :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:04 pm

Alfan wrote: I guess test 'L' in the ABS section is the one of interest here.
Allan, I am mistyfied:

In the Q4 manual the tests for the ABS go as far as D7.
In the US/Canada El.Wiring Handbook they go as far as I4.

Where do you find an L-Test?
Helli
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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:31 pm

Helli wrote:Where do you find an L-Test?
You got mail :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

164 TD
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by 164 TD » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:58 pm

Regarding your removal of the blower; be careful with the lever and please explain the way to remove the controlcable from the lever and how you remove the clipring.
TD en Q4 owner

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:03 pm

Alfan wrote:
Helli wrote:Where do you find an L-Test?
You got mail :)
Thanks Allan!
Oh my!
I rember vaguely, that we have been going over this some months before Image.
I am getting old
I tend to neglect the English Q4 Handbook, because it is from 1993, the German one is from 1994, but it does not contain the diagnosis lists.

Thanks for your data, you are a really well organized man Image.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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