164 Q4 1994

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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:16 pm

8)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:03 pm

164 TD wrote:Regarding your removal of the blower; be careful with the lever and please explain the way to remove the controlcable from the lever and how you remove the clipring.
Arjen, I did not have to touch them :) .
But let me tell you the story in proper sequence.

My last posting on this subject finished with the report, that I did remove the wiper assembly (+ motor) and the false firewall (FFW) without any problem. I did this based on the suggestions from our friends in the AlfaBB-forum.

As next steps they had proposed to take out the whole Air Conditioning Assembly in order to be able to remove the clips, which hold the blower casing together and move this away from the levers and louvres.
I got scared!
Then I remembered the report of of a guy, who did perform a "cesarean" to get the blower motor out, a solution which was frowned upon by the gurus.
I looked some more at this and the more I read, Image the more this made sense.

After a fortifying beer and a deep breath I grabbed a suitable tool.

Image

It is a highspeed pneumatic, very thin cutting disc.
The following picture shows, what was cut out as one piece.

Image

After taking off the two screws next to the motor axis the motor could be lifted out.

Image

The new motor slipped in just as easily.
For glueing the cutoff section back, I used a favorite of mine.

Image

It is a viscous fasthardening two-component glue "Plastibond" from Pestec, developped for repair and structural bonding of plastic parts. I just covered the cut edges and put the parts together.

Image

While the glue was still plastic, I covered the seams with glasfiber netting and pressed upon this a plastic foil

Image

After letting it cure I ground the residues off

Image

Some black color finished this action.

Needless to stress the fact, that putting back the wiper assembly and the false firewall went as quick and smooth as dismantling them.

Since then the new blower motor is purring away nicely every day. :D
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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alfa east
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by alfa east » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:04 am

Interesting; I suppose the last photo you posted was before you put on the black color? I was trying to find the source where you bought the electric motor; was that in another topic? Was it an original Bosch?

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:01 am

alfa east wrote:Interesting; I suppose the last photo you posted was before you put on the black color?
Yes, I forgot to take a "final photo". Now the protective cover is on and since we have sub-freezing temperatures, I hesitate to take it off just for a picture.
alfa east wrote:I was trying to find the source where you bought the electric motor; was that in another topic? Was it an original Bosch?
We discussed this in "Technical", remember?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1078
Yes it is a Bosch original, which the Supplier in Bavaria still have on stock.
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alfa east
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by alfa east » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:10 pm

Yeah, right, thanks Helli.

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:04 am

End of March the Q4 had to be presented for the technical inspection, which is due in Germany in a 2 years cycle. It is called "TÜV" which is the abbreviation for the agency, which does the inspection.

I simply took the car there whithout any preparations, because this is the best way to find out, what is wrong, which did not catch my attention before.

Indeed they did find a couple of defects, which I did not know about (except the first :mrgreen: ).
- Leak of hydraulic fluid (red) from the Viscomatic system
- On the left side of the steering rod the "ball joint" has to be replaced
- The ball joints of both (front) suspension arms (swing arms) have to be replaced
- Of the rear stabilisation bar, one "connection rod" {Pleuel (ger), biellette (f)} has to be replaced.

Since the last item is not available any more, I include here the pictures from the French documentation (forum's service manuals) and from ePER.

Image
In this picture it is item #6

Image
In this picture it is item #7

As far as I can see, this "connection rod" is unique for the Q4 model.
I shall post a related request under "Technical" (or "WANTED" ?), since I have no idea where to get this part.

The drops of hydrulik fluid (it is the same, which is used for the power steering but it is driven by a separate pump) are visible under the block of the "Epicycloidalgroup".
This block has it's own and separate fluid filling system, also with "red" hydraulic oil.
But this is not the culprit, because I can measure the leak effect by the slow decrease of the level in the fluid reservoire for power steering and Viscomatic group.
It must be in one of the lines shown in the following diagram

Image

And this is somewhat disquieting

Helli
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

164 TD
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by 164 TD » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:30 pm

If I recall correctly, those "struts" can be replaced by the ones who are used on the 156.

I think Superwebmaster did it before.

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:01 pm

Helli wrote:The drops of hydrulik fluid (it is the same, which is used for the power steering but it is driven by a separate pump) are visible under the block of the "Epicycloidalgroup".
This block has it's own and separate fluid filling system, also with "red" hydraulic oil.
But this is not the culprit, because I can measure the leak effect by the slow decrease of the level in the fluid reservoire for power steering and Viscomatic group.
It must be in one of the lines shown in the following diagram

Image

And this is somewhat disquieting
I don't quite follow this... The servopump is for both the power steering and 4WD. So if the level drops in the reservoir, you have a problem in one or both systems - at least that's what I think... So I think you need to get under the car and inspect more to find the issue.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

Helli
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Location: Bavaria

Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Allan,

there are no hydraulic oil leaks in the power steering assembly.

The oil drips from the underside of the Epicycloidalgroup - box.
But I do not see, where the leak is.
Would it leak from the box, then the level in the steering reservoir would not change.
Since it changes, the leak must be somwhere else in the system.
But I have not found it yet.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Alfan
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:56 pm

Ok, then I get the problem.

Could it be one of the pipes that are leaking and it is running downwards to the box?
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

Helli
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: Bavaria

Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:30 pm

Today we took off the two pipelines going into the Viscomatic system and replaced all copper sealing rings. (there are several!)
I suspected exactly like you that the drops come from them.
We will see :D
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:11 am

Afterr several days the connections are dry.
But some oil appeared at the underside as shown in the picture below

Image

What to do ? Image
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wilco
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:04 pm

maybe the lines on top are rusted bad ? it's a known issue that the lines above the fuel tank rust and eventually start leaking.
i would check them first if i was you.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by 164 TD » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:51 am

Are you sure it is hydraulic fluid from the viscomatic/steering system and no gearboxoil?

I just oploaded the servicemanual of the viscomatic

It could be that it is gearboxoil and that means your gearbox is leaking.

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TD en Q4 owner

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:06 pm

Of course, it could be the gearbox - it uses the same type of hydraulic fluid, but selfcontained.

My logic is, it must be the Viscomatic piping, because the Q4 lost hydraulic fluid in measurable quantities from the steering/viscomatic reservoir. And the steering is not leaking, it is far away from the drops under the viscomatic.

The Viscomatic hydraulic lines are prfectly dry now - and so is the underside. When reporting it a few posts earlier (with the picture) I cleaned the whole box thoroughly and it is dry since then.
I hope, the drops were just a residue from exchanging the copper seals of the line connections. This of course resulted in a significant bleeding, which maybe I did not clean properly
I will keep it under close surveillance, next Thursday the car goes again to the inspection agency (TÜV).
I will report the results of course
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:58 pm

164 TD wrote:If I recall correctly, those "struts" can be replaced by the ones who are used on the 156. I think Superwebmaster did it before.

Image
Excellent help Arjen!
Among the 156 struts I did not find the right one.
Either the threat was wrong or the configuration.
I was successfull among the Lancias, as suggested by Didot in the "Technical" section.
didod wrote:I think that Lancia Kappa from '96 has similar rear suspension. With those stabilizers. :) Part number is 46462049. You can try to see it in real.
There only the lenghts were too long.

We used Wilco's advice, also from the "Technical" section.
wilco wrote:nr7 on the second picture?
You might wanna search for a VW one, make it the right length, weld it, make it look nice like nothing has been done to it ;)
Below are two Pictures of "before" and "after".

Coming Thursday the Q4 has the next inspection date.
I will report here, what the Inspectors think of this solution

Image
Image
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:52 am

make it look like it's original. to avoid comments at the MOT ;)
these where probably also cheaper then alfa ;)
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:49 pm

When correcting the "complaints" from the "Technical Inspection" - as a byproduct - I de-rusted not only the hydraulic lines, but also the whole underside of the car.
The proper job would have been to dismantle all parts, sandspray them and cover them with a powder-coating.

But I do not have the time (yet) to do this.
The result of my manual work can be seen here:

Image

Image

Image
Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by 164 TD » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:40 pm

Nice job!

I like the pictures with the before and after!
TD en Q4 owner

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Alfan » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:25 pm

That is a good job! I especially like the looks of the exhaust pipe before and after :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 270kkm
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 65kkm
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello 195kkm
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 100kkm

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wilco
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by wilco » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:42 pm

nice :D
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:44 pm

The exteriour of the Q4 is - I am proud to say - in excellent condition.
I am ashamed to say, that during the last 12 month, I succeeded to put a few very little dents into the skin. Image
Of course, now comes the time to make them invisible.

For this I would like to get the original paint - which has the color code 642/F dark grey.

I googled for it but had no success.

Does any one know of a source for this paint?
Helli
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alfa east
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by alfa east » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:28 am

I think most famous brands (RM, Glasurit, DuPont etc.) would have this in their computer and can mix it for you. The problem arises if they have to compensate for the fact that your car's color has probably changed a bit over the years. So go for blending instead of just spraying one body part.
http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/co ... _romeo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ALFA ROMEO GRIGIO LOTHAR PEARL AR642 1992 - METALLIC

From another site:
http://program.multichem.pl/index/index_cp99.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:28 pm

Thank You, Alfa East.
I will follow up the links.
Of course you are right, spraying would not be a good idea, blending is the proper method.
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

Helli
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Re: 164 Q4 1994

Post by Helli » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:39 pm

Do You Know What It Means (not "to miss New Orleans" this time, but)... :mrgreen:

Image

the Diva passed all inspection tests with flying colours.
The yellow seal means:....next inspection in April 2015
Helli
3.0 V24 Q4 1994

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