Front axle camber adjustment

For info about upgrading the 164.
Post Reply
alfa164superwebmaster
Q4 owner
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm

Front axle camber adjustment

Post by alfa164superwebmaster » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:39 pm

As some of you might know, the Alfa 164 has McPherson struts in the front, with a fixed camber angle.

Like many front wheel drive cars, the camber is slightly negative on the 164, meaning the top of the wheels are slightly leaning towards the inside of the car.

A disadvantage of this construction becomes apparent when lowering springs are fitted to the car.
The lower springs result in a more negative camber, which is good for cornering, but perhaps a little 'too-good'.
The negative camber very often results in rapidly worn insides of the tyres, and a little more nervous handling when driving in tracks and on the straight.

My 164 Q4 especially 'ate' tyres and was pretty nervous on the straights. Therefore I thought it needed a little DIY (do it yourself) job.

Today I drilled / filed out the 3 holes in the car body which hold the top mounts of the front struts, so I could decrease the negative camber. I drilled the holes out approx 8 mm, so there is now approx 8 mm of play.

I will visit the wheel alignment guys next week, but just to see the effect I moved the struts out about 4mm each. The result is unbelievable. On straights the car feels much more solid, and much less nervous.

I will post final results after wheel alignment is done.

cheers

alfisti-164
Site Admin
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 6:12 pm
Location: Arnhem

Post by alfisti-164 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:10 pm

That is an interesting thing you did... I really want to know how he drives after the wheelallignment! Details please, because you say its less nervous, but how is he in the corners now?

Are the official measurments availeble anywhere? Then you can check and adjust the camber to original factory settings.

Do you have any pictures?

Alfissimo International
164 Q owner
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:48 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by Alfissimo International » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:17 pm

alfa164superwebmaster said:
As some of you might know, the Alfa 164 has McPherson struts in the front, with a fixed camber angle.

Like many front wheel drive cars, the camber is slightly negative on the 164, meaning the top of the wheels are slightly leaning towards the inside of the car.

A disadvantage of this construction becomes apparent when lowering springs are fitted to the car.
The lower springs result in a more negative camber, which is good for cornering, but perhaps a little 'too-good'.
The negative camber very often results in rapidly worn insides of the tyres, and a little more nervous handling when driving in tracks and on the straight.

My 164 Q4 especially 'ate' tyres and was pretty nervous on the straights. Therefore I thought it needed a little DIY (do it yourself) job.

Today I drilled / filed out the 3 holes in the car body which hold the top mounts of the front struts, so I could decrease the negative camber. I drilled the holes out approx 8 mm, so there is now approx 8 mm of play.

I will visit the wheel alignment guys next week, but just to see the effect I moved the struts out about 4mm each. The result is unbelievable. On straights the car feels much more solid, and much less nervous.

I will post final results after wheel alignment is done.

cheers
I am working on this as we speak as well. I was thinking of shortening the control arm to move the ball joint in slightly.

I run Koni/ B+G springs, Eibach sway bars, Sienna wheels 17X7.5 w/235/40/17 tires.
Image

Image

Image

Here is my last alignment:
Image

Image

alfa164superwebmaster
Q4 owner
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm

Post by alfa164superwebmaster » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:06 pm

Well, I took my Q4 to the wheel-aligment shop where they fine-tuned the setup.

The camber is now within factory specs and the handling really improved.
Hope that the car will now be a little less tire-hungry as well. :-)

@Jason, why would you try to change the contol arms? Seems to me like a lot more work without easy adjustments.

Slotting the holes of the top mount can be done in minutes and provides easy adjustment possibilities when aligning the wheels.

Alfissimo International
164 Q owner
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:48 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Alfissimo International » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:39 pm

alfa164superwebmaster said:
Well, I took my Q4 to the wheel-aligment shop where they fine-tuned the setup.

The camber is now within factory specs and the handling really improved.
Hope that the car will now be a little less tire-hungry as well. :-)

@Jason, why would you try to change the contol arms? Seems to me like a lot more work without easy adjustments.

Slotting the holes of the top mount can be done in minutes and provides easy adjustment possibilities when aligning the wheels.
Slotting the holse has been done on mine already, I did that about 10 years ago but it brings out the top of the wheel too much and can stick out of the wheel well. I rather leave that in the proper position and move it in on the lower but we are looking at several ways of doing it. Not set on anything yet.
Thanks
J

alfa164superwebmaster
Q4 owner
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm

Post by alfa164superwebmaster » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:10 pm

What offset have your wheels got? My 19" OZ have ET35, and won't stick out at all with the camber adjustment.

It is possible to reduce the offset of the wheels at specialized shops.

Alfissimo International
164 Q owner
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:48 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Alfissimo International » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:48 pm

alfa164superwebmaster said:
What offset have your wheels got? My 19" OZ have ET35, and won't stick out at all with the camber adjustment.

It is possible to reduce the offset of the wheels at specialized shops.
I have Zender Sienna et25. 17X7.5

I really think that this slotting works well but I like to make things difficult, challenge myself sometimes. So I was looking at it with a friend of mine who is a tech for the Ferrari race team, we looked at several things but I think that I only need to adjust in about 1-2mm to get it to the min. spec.

I will be doing this in the next 2 weeks so I will update you on the progress and if the slotting helped bring it into spec. I may have last time brought the wheel all the way out to the end of the slot I made and that may be way way too far.

Keep you guys posted.

Jason

User avatar
wilco
3.0 V6 24V owner
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:26 pm

Post by wilco » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:49 am

better drill out the 4 holes at the bottom of the shockabsorber..

alfa164superwebmaster
Q4 owner
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm

Post by alfa164superwebmaster » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:22 pm

why would that be beter? I think there is much more load on the 4 bolts, compared to the top mounts.
This could result in changed alingment eg. when driving over severe bumps etc.

User avatar
wilco
3.0 V6 24V owner
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:26 pm

Post by wilco » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:38 pm

neh michel it won't. If you tighten those 4 bolds, the friction is that high, it will never move.
The reason i said it, is it looks much nices then big holes in then top of the fender.
Also, you have to move it a lot for just a little adjustment (because of the long arm)
also possible (if left side has enought clearance) is to move the whole subframe a bit to the left.

Have you allready tried to adjust it now ? as there is some clearance allreay on tose bolds. Maybe just enought ?

fasani
QV 24V owner
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:09 am
Location: Assen

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by fasani » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:00 am

Edit complete.
1993 24v QV Nero / 1993 24v QV Rosso / 1990 12v QV Nero

164 TD
Q4 owner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 3:13 pm
Location: Honselersdijk

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by 164 TD » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:26 pm

I finally found myself a way to digitalize alll the 164 microfiches I have of the 164; the Royal Dutch Library still has some in service and today I scanned 2 fiches (out of 34 I have); the entire maintenance manual of the Q4. This contains some 400 pages of Q4 info.

Next step is to digitalize them.Today I made a starter and scanned chapter 21; the suspension.

Here a preview of the quality and what's coming:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
TD en Q4 owner

Image

User avatar
alfa east
3.0 V6 24V automatic
Posts: 1130
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:26 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by alfa east » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:35 am

Great, what a treasure trove this is becoming! I hope one day we will find someone who has the ZF automatic gear box (renovation) manual. No problems yet, but I dread the day...

sportston
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:06 am
Location: Essex
Contact:

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by sportston » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:27 pm

Thanks for the tips guys. I drilled out the holes at the top on my one after reading this post. Worked a charm!
I have the original five spoke Zenders on mine and the offset on them makes them stick out a bit further than the non-zender items. They do sit a bit close to the edge of the wheel arches, but even with my suspension lowered they do not foul the arches. I like the wide stance and they look pretty cool. However I do notice that there is more of a tendency to torque-steer more with the zenders than the normal 164 alfa alloys.

User avatar
Alfaomegatron
3.0 V6 12V owner
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:33 pm

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by Alfaomegatron » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:02 pm

Interesting, and a brave man to start drilling those mount points. Dont suppose you could post up some pics and let me know the final settings you dialled in. Has the handling changed after this mod?
1990 V6 Lusso

User avatar
wilco
3.0 V6 24V owner
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:26 pm

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by wilco » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:11 pm

you can also do a lot by adding rings or grind a little of the spacer on the lower wishbone. then you can keep the car more original :)
Last edited by wilco on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Henry Ford, 1939: "Every time I see an Alfa Romeo pass by, I lift my hat."
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V Q4--
--Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24V--

sportston
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:06 am
Location: Essex
Contact:

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by sportston » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:13 pm

Alfaomegatron wrote:Interesting, and a brave man to start drilling those mount points. Dont suppose you could post up some pics and let me know the final settings you dialled in. Has the handling changed after this mod?
I haven't got any pics of it yet. I might get around to doing some pics once I've finished installing my LPG system later this week.
I don't know what the settings are, I just guessed by moving each side the same amount.
Is the handling better? Yes, there is less torque-steer and more grip especially noticeable in the wet, in straight lines and low speed steering.
The front end is more confident and less twitchy. I think it could be even better if I was able to make a greater adjustment but I ran out of room to do so. In future I may grind a bit of the large centre hole away to allow me to move the top of the struts further out, but right now I am busy doing other things. I'll get around to it eventually.
Will add pictures when I can find my daughters camera.

grafsped
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by grafsped » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:41 pm

Nice body kit! I think I have to find one more for my car. And how it bothers you on the road?
learn more about how to get race car vinyls

perry
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:42 am
Location: east sussex

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by perry » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:14 pm

hi anyone know where or if it is still possible to get eibach roll bars and such as cant find anything for the 164 anywhere?

User avatar
ALFAHEIDA
3.5 V6 12V Savali owner
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 7:33 pm
Location: Alfacity
Contact:

Re: Front axle camber adjustment

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:24 pm

@Perry, try Jason at Alfissimo. He has made some.
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

Post Reply