Q4 in Germany

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maxmax
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:48 pm
Location: Ludwigsburg

Q4 in Germany

Post by maxmax » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:05 pm

Hi Fellow Alfisti,

I aquired this decent Q4 from Nederlands just a few days ago and found this forum already very helpful!
Planning to use the Q4 as my daily, as the experience is just too good to be parked in a garage for weeks.

Only problem right now is the AC and heating, it doesn't cool but it doesn't heat either.
Trouble codes are 4U and 8U and in my opinion the car rides too cool with about 75-80°C water temp on the Autobahn.

Drives really good otherwise and the first step will be to change all the fluids in my workshop.

Max
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ALFAHEIDA
3.5 V6 12V Savali owner
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:52 pm

Welcome Max.
Familiar car....😉
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

maxmax
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by maxmax » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:16 am

ALFAHEIDA wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:52 pm
Welcome Max.
Familiar car....😉
Hi Alfaheida,

how familiar?

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ALFAHEIDA
3.5 V6 12V Savali owner
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:18 am

I know it was Tom's.
Nice q4.
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

maxmax
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Location: Ludwigsburg

Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by maxmax » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:59 pm

Indeed, are you the one who carried out the work together with tom?

fasani
QV 24V owner
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by fasani » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:24 am

Welcome, good to see this Q4 got new and nice home.
1993 24v QV Nero / 1993 24v QV Rosso / 1990 12v QV Nero

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ALFAHEIDA
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by ALFAHEIDA » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:19 pm

maxmax wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:59 pm
Indeed, are you the one who carried out the work together with tom?
No. I think it was Michel. Superwebmaster on this forum.
Alfa 164 QV(S) 12V 3.5 Project '91 /Alfa 164 3.0 12V Automatic '89

maxmax
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:48 pm
Location: Ludwigsburg

First breakdown

Post by maxmax » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:58 am

Hi Guys,

bad news my Q4 broke down.
I suspect an issue with the Oil pump. Engine seems to be seized and has to come out anyways.

Now to get her running again I have found a 3.0 24V from a 166 quite cheaply, not bougth yet.
Is it possible to swap the exterrnals like upper engine mount, thermostate etc between the engines to make it work or do i have to change everything into the propably "broken" 164 block?
Thanks!

alfa164superwebmaster
Q4 owner
Posts: 60
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by alfa164superwebmaster » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:59 am

Hi Max

I replaced the belt on your Q4. Such a shame to hear that the engine is now scrapped. :| The car ran very well when it left the garage.
Unfortunately I have seen this happen quite a few times where owners new to the Alfa V6 (especially 24v models) rev their engines too hard and too long, without changing oil to 10W60.

Even Alfa Romeo mentions in the manual that 10W60 is recommended for 'spirited driving'.

Unfortunately this info does not help you now, since the damage is already done and the rod bearings and crankshaft are most likely completely damaged.

Your best option is to source a donor engine from a 164 24v (any 24v will work). This is a straight swap.
NOTE: you MUST use camshafts and sensors of the Q4 rear cylinder head since they are different than other models.

When installing the donor engine, replace all seals, main bearings and rod bearings.
Make sure to get the correct bearings (the crankshaft is color coded and so are the bearings, doublecheck your measurements with plastigauge), otherwise your rebuilt engine wont last 500kms.

Engine from 166 or 156 will not fit, you can however use the crankshaft, rods, liners and other basic engine components to repair your current engine.
This route I would not recommend though, unless you are experienced in engine rebuilding.

I recommend you to contact Edgar: cmva@zeelandnet.nl, he has a large inventory of Alfa 164 V6 parts.

good luck!

maxmax
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:48 pm
Location: Ludwigsburg

Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by maxmax » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:40 am

alfa164superwebmaster wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:59 am
Hi Max

I replaced the belt on your Q4. Such a shame to hear that the engine is now scrapped. :| The car ran very well when it left the garage.
Unfortunately I have seen this happen quite a few times where owners new to the Alfa V6 (especially 24v models) rev their engines too hard and too long, without changing oil to 10W60.

Even Alfa Romeo mentions in the manual that 10W60 is recommended for 'spirited driving'.

Unfortunately this info does not help you now, since the damage is already done and the rod bearings and crankshaft are most likely completely damaged.

Your best option is to source a donor engine from a 164 24v (any 24v will work). This is a straight swap.
NOTE: you MUST use camshafts and sensors of the Q4 rear cylinder head since they are different than other models.

When installing the donor engine, replace all seals, main bearings and rod bearings.
Make sure to get the correct bearings (the crankshaft is color coded and so are the bearings, doublecheck your measurements with plastigauge), otherwise your rebuilt engine wont last 500kms.

Engine from 166 or 156 will not fit, you can however use the crankshaft, rods, liners and other basic engine components to repair your current engine.
This route I would not recommend though, unless you are experienced in engine rebuilding.

I recommend you to contact Edgar: cmva@zeelandnet.nl, he has a large inventory of Alfa 164 V6 parts.

good luck!
Hi,

yes indeed it ran very well, I am absolutely amazed by the 164.
The Problem happen so suddenly, I couldnt believe it.
At that time I wasnt driving fast as it was in a roadworks area where it was unfortunatly impossible to stop immediately in a safe spot.

Thanks already for the Tips!
I have some experience with engine building, but not Alfa so far.

About getting the engine out. Is it better to separate the gearbox and engine or take it out as one piece?

Also wich cam lock tool (number) do I need exactly, found various ones at a very wide price range?

Regards, Max

finalfa
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:44 pm
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by finalfa » Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:21 pm

maxmax wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:40 am
alfa164superwebmaster wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:59 am
Hi Max

I replaced the belt on your Q4. Such a shame to hear that the engine is now scrapped. :| The car ran very well when it left the garage.
Unfortunately I have seen this happen quite a few times where owners new to the Alfa V6 (especially 24v models) rev their engines too hard and too long, without changing oil to 10W60.

Even Alfa Romeo mentions in the manual that 10W60 is recommended for 'spirited driving'.

Unfortunately this info does not help you now, since the damage is already done and the rod bearings and crankshaft are most likely completely damaged.

Your best option is to source a donor engine from a 164 24v (any 24v will work). This is a straight swap.
NOTE: you MUST use camshafts and sensors of the Q4 rear cylinder head since they are different than other models.

When installing the donor engine, replace all seals, main bearings and rod bearings.
Make sure to get the correct bearings (the crankshaft is color coded and so are the bearings, doublecheck your measurements with plastigauge), otherwise your rebuilt engine wont last 500kms.

Engine from 166 or 156 will not fit, you can however use the crankshaft, rods, liners and other basic engine components to repair your current engine.
This route I would not recommend though, unless you are experienced in engine rebuilding.

I recommend you to contact Edgar: cmva@zeelandnet.nl, he has a large inventory of Alfa 164 V6 parts.

good luck!
Hi,

yes indeed it ran very well, I am absolutely amazed by the 164.
The Problem happen so suddenly, I couldnt believe it.
At that time I wasnt driving fast as it was in a roadworks area where it was unfortunatly impossible to stop immediately in a safe spot.

Thanks already for the Tips!
I have some experience with engine building, but not Alfa so far.

About getting the engine out. Is it better to separate the gearbox and engine or take it out as one piece?

Also wich cam lock tool (number) do I need exactly, found various ones at a very wide price range?

Regards, Max
Drop the whole subframe with engine and gearbox. It is the only sensible way of doing it. It is true PITA, so it is worth getting everything done in one go. Took me around 15 h to drop the whole package the first time. Consider getting at least the clutch swapped, as this is one of the jobs you DO NOT want to do with the engine in the car.

Also, be ready for a whole lot of faults in the AWD once you are done, as the power steering needs to be bled afterwards. Send me a PM if you need help with this. I have had my fair share of problems with the Viscomatic system.

The cam locks are available in two versions, 2.5-3.0 and 3.2. Get the ones for the 2.5-3.0 engines. These works fine with the Q4, even though it has unique camshafts to the rest of the Busso lineup. I would recommend getting a TDC gauge as well, as these do come in handy.
Alfa Romeo GTV 6 2.5 -83
Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 V6 -02
Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 3.7 -96
Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 3.2 -94
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 -90

maxmax
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:48 pm
Location: Ludwigsburg

Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by maxmax » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:45 pm

Hi Finalfa,

thanks! I alredy started with removing everything around the engine (11h) so far and then lifitng the engine out with the gearbox. The route for doing this is because I have a lift, but due to its design I can't drop the subframe.

Thanks for the offer! I probably get back to you.
I've read a lot about the visco and it doesn't sound that bad, everything should be doable, they didn't use rocket science.

Ill update here.

Max

finalfa
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:44 pm
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by finalfa » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:47 am

maxmax wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:45 pm
Hi Finalfa,

thanks! I alredy started with removing everything around the engine (11h) so far and then lifitng the engine out with the gearbox. The route for doing this is because I have a lift, but due to its design I can't drop the subframe.

Thanks for the offer! I probably get back to you.
I've read a lot about the visco and it doesn't sound that bad, everything should be doable, they didn't use rocket science.

Ill update here.

Max
Sounds like everything is going quite smoothly then! Good luck to you, hopefully you'll have your Q4 back on the road soon. Let me know how the procedure of removing the engine from the top works out, as I have never tried it. It will probably be pretty tight getting the whole holiness out at once, but surely doable.

-S
Alfa Romeo GTV 6 2.5 -83
Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 V6 -02
Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 3.7 -96
Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 3.2 -94
Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 -90

maxmax
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:48 pm
Location: Ludwigsburg

Engine is out

Post by maxmax » Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:40 pm

Hi guys!
I manage to take the engine out together with the gearbox from the top.
It is extremely tight and you need an engine balancer or make your own that you can roll the package in all 3 axis.
Also the bracket for the aircon/generator has to be removed also everything on the engine bay.
Total time was about 12.5h.

alfa164superwebmaster
Q4 owner
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm

Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by alfa164superwebmaster » Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:50 am

Yes it is super tight :-)
Good to hear you managed to get it out.

Did you find the defect/problem?

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Alfan
Q4 owner
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Re: Q4 in Germany

Post by Alfan » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:12 pm

Congratulations on getting a Q4 :D

Sorry to hear about your problems, though. I hope you have found a solution, so you can enjoy this car again soon! 8)

Some more photos of your car and the work you are doing, would be great.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Multiair TCT Bianco Pastello
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione
1980 Alfa Romeo Alfetta Blindata Bianco

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