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Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:31 am
by KY2006
I am looking for a clutch master cylinder for my QV24, Right Hand Drive. Knew that RHD version is difficult to find, but hope that folks here might know where to find one. Parts number is 82451850 (former reference was 60809183). Thanks.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:33 pm
by 164 TD
Alfist might have one, send him a pm.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:44 am
by KY2006
164 TD wrote:Alfist might have one, send him a pm.
Done. Thanks.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:58 pm
by KY2006
Advice, anyone?

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:58 pm
by ALFAHEIDA
Khung, what is the partnumber youre looking for?

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:18 am
by KY2006
Hi, khung is my other 164 pal in Hong Kong. Anyway, Parts number for a clutch master cylinder right hand drive is 82451850 (former reference was 60809183).

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:47 pm
by ALFAHEIDA
KY2006 wrote:Hi, khung is my other 164 pal in Hong Kong. Anyway, Parts number for a clutch master cylinder right hand drive is 82451850 (former reference was 60809183).
Sorry, for mistaken your name. I will try some friends in England if they can get anything.
Keep you posted!

Regards,

Erwin

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:49 am
by KY2006
Thanks. I have too posted a request in the UK AO site, but not much luck so far. I am curious how other 164 owners manage to keep their QV going - clutch master will wear out and have to be replaced at some point?

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:08 am
by KY2006
Here is an update. Despite fellow's help and referrals, there has been no luck for the clutch master cylinder or repair kit. Through eBay, I have found a repair kit not intended for 164 but earlier Alfa models but having the same bore size of 19mm. Will ask my mechanic to see if he can improvise. In fact, I found a second hand clutch master cylinder from the UK where the breaker claimed to be in good working order. Never buy second hand as this supposedly good one taken from a running car was in very bad condition. My mechanic took it apart and found internal wall badly corroded, and the metal bracket badly deformed due to prolonged used after the clutch cylinder turned bad. I shall recondition my own clutch master cylinder the second time. Also, I learned from the Classis Alfa site that they can replace cutch master with 'racing version' but unfortunately it is not suitable for 164. :(. It has been so frustrating. LHD version of 164 is much luckier...

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:27 am
by ALFAHEIDA
Sad story! This will be a real problem in the future.
If you do overhaul the master brake cilinder then please let us know how it go's. There are more people to come with this problem.

Goodluck fixing it!

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:34 pm
by KY2006
Will do. Would also like other folks driving RHD version of 164 to more actively share how they manage this problem here. There is still a common belief that LHD and RHD 164 have the same clutch master cylinder. My search of many Alfa Romeo forums in RHD regions also found very few discussions about this. Am very curious how others solve their clutch problem, as this being a wear-and-tear item and the problem of looking for replacement parts should be common, I suppose.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:18 am
by alfa east
In Thailand we have RHD of course but all the 3 liters have an automatic gear box. The 2 liters are manual but I presume they use a different model master cylinder? Would it help if I check how they solve this problem?

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:51 am
by KY2006
Yes, please. Not sure if 2.0 and 3.0 share the same clutch master, but it will be useful to know where they find parts for the 2.0 as there might be a chance that some shops or 164 owners or previous owners may still carry a spare clutch master. When I last checked with a supplier in Australia, only when we double-checked by verifying the pictures that it realized that the one it carried in stock was a LHD version which they received in error some years ago.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:23 am
by sportston
I'm not sure if the 24v has the same master cylinder as the early 12v but I got mine from Lucas in the UK. BUT, the one they have listed for the 164 was not the same as mine. I had to modify it slightly to fit, but I think that was only because my car is one of the earliest 164s in the country. I believe the later cars like the 24v should fit without modification. It was not too expensive. I think it cost about £30 a couple of years ago. You should find that any motor factors in the UK will be able to supply one. Fitting it is a bugger of a job though! Be prepared for skinned knuckles and arthritic hands.

Don't throw your old one away until you have fitted the new one. I had to use the old plunger rod to make it fit on mine as the new one was too short. I doubt you will have this problem, but just in case....

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:00 am
by KY2006
sportston wrote:I'm not sure if the 24v has the same master cylinder as the early 12v but I got mine from Lucas in the UK. ....
Thanks for reviving this thread. My search continues. Just yesterday, my mechanic finished considering improvising a LHD version of clutch master cylinder and reported that everything fit except the orientation of the tube end inlet hole, and the space of RHD QV24 is such that there is no way you can fiddle with it unless you lift the engine :evil: So the LHD clutch master is now back to the box; would have to tolerate the almost failing master clutch cylinder now, by adding a spring near the slave cylinder to assure full and quick return.

If folks do not fully understand the problem (and I am surprised that few of you raised this problem here; probably yours are LHD version where parts supply is not an issue).

These pictures show the factory original master clutch cylinder (black, made by BendItalia) placed side by side an after market replacement (Lockheed) which I bought from Alfaholics in the UK.

Image
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Then I found a UK eBay seller claiming that he has a clutch master that would suit all RHD 164s. I asked him for pictures and these were what I received - the seller concluded that it is not the same as mine so the purchase did not happen:

Image
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In my global search, I found an Alfa shop in Australia which happened to have a LHD version of the clutch master. I sent him pictures of my factory original and he said his looks the same as Alfaholics' Lockheed. When I asked if there are other possible substitutes, he suggested me look at Alfa 75's. Here are his pictures of a RHD Alfa 75 clutch master cylinder.

Image
Image

My findings so far are, in order to fit,
(a) the distance between the threaded anchor holes should be approximately 50mm;
(b) the bore size of the cylinder should be 19mm; and
(c) the tube end inlet hole should face the opposite direction of the tube top inlet.

My search continues, but would unlikely produce encouraging results. Mine has been rebuilt once, so it may not last any longer. So any advice will be most welcome.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:27 pm
by sportston
Nice clear pics! Ok so what I ended up doing was fitting the one with the output pointing straight out instead of down. I had to alter the angle of the outlet pipe a bit but it worked ok. However on mine I also had to change the plunger rod as it was a different length to the new one. However the alfa 75 one looks very similar to the real thing. If I recall correctly though the holes where the bolts go through on one of them (can't remember which sorry) were angled differently (twisted around so that the holes didn't line up). I think you may have to get a bit "creative", as I did. Oh one other thing was that one of the master cylinders that came close to fitting had threads in the mounting holes, whereas the others didn't.
BUT...you mention that you have a problem with the pedal returning! I had the same problem which was caused by a broken spring inside the master cylinder. I still had a similar problem after the master cylinder was replaced just not so bad. It returns, but sometimes there is a short bit of slack on the first bit of movement on the clutch pedal. After ruling out both the pipework and the slave cylinder too, I eventually came to the conclusion that it is a faulty design. The arm that presses against the slave cylinder does not have quite enough spring tension to always push the piston back in all the way. I think this is down to what clutch you have fitted. I fitted an "LuK" clutch to replace a faulty "Sachs" unit that went juddery. It was ever since then that I've had the problem with the pedal not returning the whole way. The clutch is lighter now, which is nice, but it obviously is under-sprung. I've got used to it now and it never fails to be useable, nor gets stuck down and it doesn't slip or judder. But I too was contemplating fitting an extra spring on the slave unit somehow. I've yet to work out how though.
Good Luck
Tom

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:52 pm
by ALFAHEIDA
Great info guys!

Thnx!

:wink:

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:45 pm
by sportston
keep me posted as to how you get on. I'd be interested to know. Cheers
tom

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:45 am
by KY2006
Fellas,

Here is part 2 of my story. Got the Alfa 75 RHD clutch master. Looks alike the 164 RHD version but mechanic found that
(a) angle of the "wings" is different (see pictures)
Image
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The 164 RHD original has the engraving "BENDITALIA1421983" on the cylinder body.

(b) the pot hole at the end is different in design - the 164 original allows direct plug-in of hose; the Alfa 75 does not.

The mechanic had to be creative so he re-used the 164 cylinder case, remove and transfer the internals of the Alfa 75's to the 164's. The clutch works great now - took the opportunity of replacing the slave clutch cylinder, and adding a spring to ensure quick and full return of the clutch pedal.

KY

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:33 pm
by ALFAHEIDA
Nice work, and great it worked out!

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:26 pm
by KY2006
Here is an update. Trouble again. Two months ago, the brake fluid warning light came on and eventually found the leak in clutch master cylinder - the plastic elbow inlet tube broke and so drained all fluid. My mechanic replaced the tube and all was fine until two days ago. Same fault. Question is why did this happen again, at the same spot? Anyway. the incident revives my determination to find a good substitute. Found a possible substitute in the UK manufactured by "First Line" but was forewarned by others that product quality would be suspect... The pains continue. Wonder how other RHD 164s are surviving with the clutch master nightmare.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:14 pm
by 164 TD
If you look at EPER you can really see the differences between the two as well:

LH drive:

Image

RH drive:

Image

Partnumber for LH drive:60511530

Partnumber for RH drive:60809183

You can see that the supplyline from the tank arrives under a different angle as well as the pressureline departs completely different.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:56 pm
by sportston
Sorry to hear you're still having problems. The plastic bit that you have had broken twice must be put under pressure by being misaligned I should think. There is so little room at the back there it is difficult to see but you have to make sure that none of the pipework fouls against other parts and bear in mind the rocking of the engine may be causing your problem.

Judging from your pictures I have the LHD master cylinder fitted to my RHD car. I've driven thousands of miles on mine with the LHD one on and haven't had a snapped plastic bit. So I reckon you might have to re-route your pipework or change the length of it or something. I did think of reconditioning the old one on mine but the bore of it was scored and corroded so I couldn't re-use it. My LHD master cylinder works ok but I still haven't got around to fitting a spring like you have to make it return all the way. Gotta find a suitable spring.

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:19 pm
by sportston
Just had another look at your pics. I don't think mine is a LHD one as the "wings" on mine were in the same place as the original. I only just noticed that in the pics you posted. Maybe mine is off a different alfa?

Re: Clutch Master Cylinder for QV24 RHD

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:02 am
by KY2006
Thanks, Tom. I think conversion from a near match would be the way out, either adjusting the pipeline or whatever. Problem is, which one (not necessarily Alfa) is a close match?