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Alfa Romeo 164 Register.com • View topic - Steering angle sensor
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Steering angle sensor

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Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:40 pm

Hi all

I recently had a split hydraulic line on my Q4, which is now fixed as it was on the return line from viscomatic and power steering loop so was easy to get to.

I then started to investigate why no 4x4 warning lamp had been lighting up and discovered the warning lamp had been removed and replaced with a blank. Now the system passes the self check and the light goes off. I have 4 wheel drive when wheels are lifted off the ground, but on turning the steering wheel to full lock normally to the right the 4x4 warning lamp lights up and stays on. When this happens I still have full 4 wheel drive and on switching off the ignition and starting again no light after self check.

The steering rack was refurbished some 1000 km ago by the previous owner. When I look at pictures of the steering angle sensor, it looks like it needs to be set as the fixing points are not just circular.

Can anyone advise if the sensor needs setting and if so what is the procedure? This could explain why the light only comes on at about full lock

Any advise would be appricated

Thanks Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Maffia_Alfista » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:43 am

The voltage should be 2,5 V when the steering is straight.
Seems like it's possible to loosen the bolts holding it and adjust it.
Image

Easiest way to measure the output of the steering angle sensor is to measure it going into the Vicomatic ECU.
Take off the back of the connector to the Viscomatic ECU (is mounted on the right side of the passenger foot well) and measure between Pin3 (+) and Pin25 (-) or other ground.
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:50 pm

The most likely situation is that the plastic tap on the sensor has been turned 180 degrees - then the sensor signal will be offset and cause an error code.

If you cannot hook up the Marelli tester, then just try and move it a ½ turn and see if you get rid of the warning light.
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1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:26 pm

Thanks to Maffia Alfista and Alfan for your advice, I will follow these instructions and see if I can solve the issue.

I am looking to buy a tester with the wiring and some modules, but have not found one yet so will have to do what I can manually for the moment

Best regards

Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Sun May 04, 2014 4:15 pm

1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 85.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Tue May 06, 2014 7:14 am

Hi Alfan

I haven't look into this yet as I have bought a Merreli tester and am waiting now for the Visco module from Alfisty which should arrive this week.

I have solved the rough running problems (mentioned on the Alfa164diagnostic thread), which turned into hesitant starting when Hot then no starting. This was down to the crank sensor braking down - using the software from Wilco I was able to detect this after a non start.

I will let you know how I get on as soon as I get some time to look at it hopefully this weekend). Work takes me away from home a lot so thinks sometimes take time to fix if they don't prevent me from driving and she is not a daily driver

Thanks for asking :D

Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Fri May 09, 2014 10:13 pm

Ok I got my MA12A module today

I plug it in and it came up with 6 faults registered in the viscomatic ecu. From my basic German translation most seemed to be steering angle sensor issues, one was for low battery voltage and one was a low signal from the brake light switch, I guess some are historical and not present now.

I cleared them all no problem and now the only fault returning is when the steering is moved to the right on full lock and the 4x4 light comes on. The fault registered is " light on due to to weak a signal present" the signal being from the steering angle sensor

It all points to it not being set up correctly when the rack was refurbished. I will now get at the sensor and try to reset

Tomorrow I will drive the car and see if any other codes / issues return

Will update
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Sat May 10, 2014 8:11 am

Before you do anything to the sensor, go to the monitoring part and monitor the voltage of the steering angle sensor with the wheels straight (app. 2.5V) and turn to each side to see it change towards 0 and 5V, respectively.

If the value is not changing, something must be wrong with the sensor or it is not connected properly - since it happens only when turning to the right, I don't expect this to happen.

Most likely it is reaching either 0 or 5V before getting to full lock on right side (can't remember which) and that is because it is not at 2.5V with wheels set straight.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 85.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Sun May 11, 2014 9:12 am

Hi Alfan

I checked the voltage using the viscomatic tester and it reads about 1.652 when wheels are straight, 3.98 when wheels on full lock to the left and 4.98 when to the right so something is set wrong I am sure. I will adjust to try to get 2.5 at centre

I will also try to move the plastic part throughout 180 degrees if I cannot adjust to 2.5 v

If at any point I get 5 v does this indicate the sensor has full voltage so the sensor is not the problem itself?
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Sun May 11, 2014 10:21 am

Ok, this was what I expected. You need to loosen the bolts on the steering angle sensor, so the sensor can turn freely. You have some adjustment room without taking the bolts out, but if it is enough to get to 2.5V with wheels straight I can't say.

You will never get 5V displayed - if you go to another step in the monitoring, you will see angle in '%', that one will start over on the scale (I hope this makes sense).

So you need to get 2.5 with wheels straight, then you should be fine :)
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Sun May 11, 2014 8:59 pm

Ok I rotated the sensor without removing it and got 2.5 v with the wheels straight -great I thought so it moved it lock to lock buy the 2.5 v stayed but no warning light came on. So I took her for a road test and after a short while the light came on again

So I took the sensor out and there was no plastic tap on the end, it was in several pieces in the rack housing. So the problem must have been related to the fact this was cracked and the spindle of the sensor was moving further than it should due to being able to move in the tap.

How can I get hold of this piece of plastic? Does it come with the sensor, and if so can you still get these sensors? :cry:
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby 164 TD » Mon May 12, 2014 3:51 am

The sensor is made by a company in the UK, I must have a picture somewhere of the sensor with the name of this company on it.
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Mon May 12, 2014 2:07 pm

I had some made when I had the problem, but they didn't work for me, as the steering rack was 90deg off when it was reconditioned. I can't remember if I put a photo of it in my album.

I will try and remember to check this tonight when I get home. Otherwise I have the drawing as a file, then it can be 3D printed.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Mon May 12, 2014 3:39 pm

Hi Alfan

That's interesting about having the parts made, if you have some left or the drawing then that would be great.

You mention about the rack being set up 90 degree out! how do you tell it is?

When my wheels are straight the grove that the sensor tap sits in appears to be aligned front to back of the car (using a mirror to look) is this correct or should it run from left to right following the steering rack alignment

Cheers Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Mon May 12, 2014 3:41 pm

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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Mon May 12, 2014 8:10 pm

You can see a couple of photos here, including one of what I believe is the center position of the failed steering rack where the sensor (plastic tip) goes into.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lf4bhcqr4mn9 ... lbB_F0YfWa

What I think happened with the reconditioned rack is that things were not put correctly together, as the center position is 90deg off to the failed rack. How that could happen I don't know. So after trying to understand what was going on (that took a couple of months) I got another plastic piece fabricated. Unfortunately, something went wrong in the measurement of it, so when I put it in, it didn't fit and therefore it broke (might be the same that happened to you, since it broke). You cannot see that when you put it back on the rack.

Anyway, the center of the plastic piece, which goes on to the actual sensor was turned 90 deg, compared to original, and I got it to work = 2.5V with wheels straight.

I tried to see if I could find them, but no luck and I don't remember what I have left. I will see if I can send you the drawings this week, but I am tied up most of the week, so can't promise anything.

But since you got it at 2.5V I am certain that a new plastic piece would fix this.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Mon May 12, 2014 9:02 pm

Thanks Alfan

I think from the pictures I can see my rack is set up as in the first photo, so is correct. I just need another plastic part.

I had come to your conclusion also that if the rack was 90 degree out, turn the spindle 90 degrees in the plastic part to correct

What was happening, was the sensor was 4v to the left, 1.6 at centre and 0 v to the right but just at the extreme of the right lock it jumped to 4.98v so I suspect the spindle had moved in the plastic giving the incorrect reading or was 180 degrees out.

I will try to make something up, but if you do find the drawing that would also be good.

Will keep you posted on my progress, but I am also quite busy with work travel

Thanks for you help so far

Regards Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Tue May 20, 2014 7:04 pm

I will look for the plastic parts (I might have) and find the file end of this week. I also need to find out which programs can be used for using the files.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Sat May 24, 2014 3:11 pm

I added files to the dropbox folder for the plastic part, however, this is a modified version, so it can be turned 90deg.

There is an STL file for 3D print and that can be viewed with the program found here: http://www.freestlview.com/

I think it would be a good idea to remove ½mm from the width of it, as it will be easier to put in the steering rack.
1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 85.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Tue May 27, 2014 10:26 pm

Hi Alfan

Thanks for the info, not sure where the drop box link is?

Should have a piece made up in a few days time, so hope to fix next week

Will keep you posted

Thanks

Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfan » Wed May 28, 2014 7:12 am

1994 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 Proteo Rosso 550.000km
1989 Lancia Thema 8.32 Verde Indy 265.000km
2001 Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0 24V Blue Lightning 55.000km
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C Rosso Competizione 85.000km
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Wed May 28, 2014 7:41 am

Thanks, I found it

Perfect
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:04 am

Hi all

Just by way of an update, I have been using the Q4 over the summer with the steering angle sensor not working due to the broken plastic pick up, but I am happy to say that I will shortly get the parts 3D printing sorted using the drawing kindly given by Alfan

Hope to update in a couple of weeks as travel and work busy

Thanks Daryl
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:33 pm

Well after a long time I have finally got some of the plastic pick ups made, and the steering rack had been assembled 90 out to what it should be like yours Alfan so the modified version works perfectly.

The only problem is that although the sensor is working correctly when turned manually, I cannot get the amount of adjustment I need on the sensor to get 2.5v when the wheels are straight. Currently when the wheels are straight the voltage is 2.98v or 2.75 with the sensor adjustment. On turning to the right it goes down to 0.78v and on turning to the left it goes to 4.955v then stops on lock at 0.04v

Angles -109% and 89%

This to me points to the pick up in the rack not being in the correct position in relation to the sensor pickup and adjustment points for the bolts. I am going to try to make a bracket to allow a bit more adjustment on the sensor to compensate

Let you know how it goes

Thanks Alfan for the 3D printer file
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Re: Steering angle sensor

Postby Alfamuppet » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:53 pm

It worked- I cut off the rear of the sensor alignment slots which allowed me to clamp on the very edge of the sensor body with the bolts and some large washers.

Now I get 4.90v to the right, 2.47v to the centre and 0.42v to the left and no 4x4 warning light :D
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