1996 Alfa 164 Cloverleaf (I'm back...)

[fasani]

Hayden,

When interested, I have some aluminum zender bolts left. let me know.

[HaydnW92]

Giri - that's interesting, I always assumed that the Cloverleaf and Q4 were sold alongside each other in all markets. Every day is a school day!

MikeCZ - Well, after I had finished laughing at the asking price, I decided I was no longer interested! His price would have been fine if they were in good condition, but they needed to be refurbished.

[HaydnW92]

Fasani - thanks for letting me know, I'll be in touch if I need any

[HaydnW92]

I haven't posted on here for a while, sorry about that. The weather has been terrible here since November so I haven't got much done on the car until recently. Today and tomorrow I should be able to finish the cambelt job thanks to Daryl (Alfamuppet on here I think?) lending me his timing tools. I used to have my own set but I sold them after selling my Q4 in 2017...

I've been taking notice of the general condition of most parts as I work. I've bought new front ARB mounting bushes and droplinks, replaced all four camshaft end seals, swapped out the top engine mount for polybushed version, etc. I'll post a few pictures below showing what I've generally been up to with the car.

I also found a brand new old stock Supersprint twin tip exhaust rear section for sale in Germany. This should hopefully arrive in the next week or so

[HaydnW92]

Pics

[HaydnW92]

Pics

[Raphael164Super24V]

You have a very nice 164 qv 24v!!! The rear exhaust silencer looks very nice!!
Do you know the reference of this supersprint exhaust?

[HaydnW92]

Thanks!

I don't know the part number of it, there wasn't one mentioned in the advert. I'll have a look when it arrives. The seller had a few 164 exhausts for sale at the time.

I finished the cambelt job at the weekend, so my engine is slowly being put back together. I *might* have the car running this weekend, with some luck I've repainted a few parts too. I used wrinkle finish red paint on the cam covers and the finish isn't great but I don't mind as it still looks better than before. The front coil pack cover and the intake plenum will be black with silver lettering.

[HaydnW92]

My Supersprint exhaust arrived at my workplace today. It really is new old stock - it has some marks and scratches of course but it's otherwise in very good condition. Would anyone be interested in the exhaust that's currently fitted to the car? It's a Supersprint oval stainless backbox as far as I'm aware. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I just prefer the twin-pipe exhausts. It will be available for sale once I have confirmed that my 'new' exhaust fits properly.

[HaydnW92]

[HaydnW92]

[164EVER]

My Supersprint exhaust arrived at my workplace today. It really is new old stock - it has some marks and scratches of course but it's otherwise in very good condition. Would anyone be interested in the exhaust that's currently fitted to the car? It's a Supersprint oval stainless backbox as far as I'm aware. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I just prefer the twin-pipe exhausts. It will be available for sale once I have confirmed that my 'new' exhaust fits properly.

Maybe interested for my 3.0 1988 tell us
a price (but I live in France)

[HaydnW92]

I'd like to make sure my 'new' Supersprint exhaust fits first, as it looks very slightly different to the current exhaust (but I haven't compared them properly yet). If the new twin-tip one fits OK then I'll post the oval exhaust for sale in this thread. I'm not totally sure what the price would be, I paid £250 for the 'new' one so something like £150 to people on here? I don't mind posting it out but I'm not sure if the current Coronavirus situation would make that difficult.

Meanwhile, my 164 QV doesn't want to start. It turns over fine, but I can't hear the fuel pump running at all. I have a battery booster so I connected the leads on that straight to the pins on the fuel pump and all I got was a very brief 'buzz' from the pump each time I did this. But then I checked the voltage output on the battery booster with a multimeter and it showed 10.4 volts, which apparently might not be enough to run the pump anyway. The car's battery showed 12.4 volts so I don't think the battery is the problem. The engine hasn't run for eight years so I wouldn't be surprised if the fuel pump has seized.

[Alfan]

Have you checked the relay for the fuel pump? Or if the connections are corroded?

[HaydnW92]

I took the relay out and cleaned the contacts. They were pretty clean already. With the ignition on, if I removed the relay and then put it back I could hear/feel the relay ticking so I assume it's OK.

[Alfan]

You can bridge the connection, so the pump is supplied directly. I don't recall the pin numbers, but I think it is written somewhere on the site. If it doesn't run, the relay is probably ok and the connection from there or the pump is not.

[HaydnW92]

That's right, I'm sure it is pins 30 and 87. I tried that - still nothing from the pump!

[16424vcloverleaf]

Had a similar issue :
There are 2 relays, fuel pump and fuel injection ECU:

S12a fuel pump relay 60805422 BOSCH 0332014113
S12b relay w/ diode 60807340 BOSCH 0332014112 (red stripe)

In my case the the relay with the red stripe which has a diode was not providing 12V to the pump relay. Soldered in a new diode and it came to life.

S12b fuel injection relay sends 12v through red wire to fuel injection relay pin 86. It also sends 12v to computer, injectors and idle actuator.

To confirm I removed relay S12a , tested socket 30 for 12v ,with key on, (pink wire). Normally when relay 12a is energised ( pin 86 +12v Pin 85 0V ) pin 30 is connected to socket 87 (pink-white wire to fuel pump).

Check also 15 Amp Fuse F22, position 20 in G1 fuse OK.

other than that Fuel pump ? May be worth looking at anyway as there is a submersible pipe connected to the fuel pump that disintegrates with age and should be replaced as does the bushing the fuel pump sits in. Check also external rubber vent hose.

Good luck.

[HaydnW92]

Thanks for that post - I've been there before with my old 164 Cloverleaf a few years ago so I'm vaguely familiar with that process but it's always handy to have it written down in detail. I had a faulty relay on that occasion, leading to the engine cutting out when hot (which I discovered while I was driving the car...)

I think the problem lies elsewhere with my current Cloverleaf however. I've removed the fuel pump and put 12v straight to it - absolutely no response. So I think we can safely conclude that my pump is dead. I've ordered a new one but who knows when it will arrive with the ongoing virus situation - not that the car will be going anywhere of course.

164Ever - I've had a proper look under my 164 and I don't think the exhaust is Supersprint afterall, though I'm sure the previous owner said it was. It looks like a custom stainless system from the catalytic converter onwards. There are no flanges between the rear silencer and the central silencer as per the standard exhaust system - instead there are sleeved joints with exhaust clamps. So to fit my Supersprint twin-tip system I guess I'll either have to modify it (which I don't want to) or fit a new centre section with the flanges (which I probably will). But that's a job for another day.

[HaydnW92]

Well, I've fitted the new fuel pump but we're not out of the woods yet. The old pump was definitely seized - putting 12v straight to the pins on the fuel pump connector now results in a working pump. Great!

However, the pump is receiving no voltage according to my multimeter. I removed the fuel pump relay and did the old trick with the piece of wire bridging pins 30 and 87 (I have a handy ready-made bit of wire for this) and the fuel pump ran with the ignition on. So I suspect the fuel pump relay is faulty, though it seems OK having tested it off the car. The resistance across pins 85 and 86 is 80.2 ohms (should be 75 to 100) and the relay audibly 'clicks' with 12v to pins 85 and 86. It could also be the motronic relay at fault, seeing as the two work off one another. I suppose I'll continue testing with the multimeter as per 16424vcloverleaf's post above and see what i find. I'm sitting in the car with a cup of tea as I write this, having another break - I seem to have a lot of them at the moment, I think all this free time during the lockdown has reduced my enthusiasm a bit.

[MikeCZ]

I guess it won't be the case, but when I was rebuilding mine, I had similar problem. I doublechecked all connectors on the way, relays, etc. and still did not had it working - on cable leading to the pump there was only small voltage. But what fixed it was replacement of the crankshaft position sensor - it had shorted circuit between coil threads and had incorrect resistance - around 550Ohms where it should had if I remember correctly 800-950Ohms. And it caused Motronic not to operate injectors...

[HaydnW92]

I was wondering abiut that yesterday - thanks, I will check the resistances today. Hopefully it's something simple like that.

[HaydnW92]

Still no luck with getting the 164 to run.

I tested the crank sensor which showed roughly 840 ohms, which is within spec but doesn't necessarily mean the sensor isn't faulty. I noticed something interesting though. I have read that when the engine is turning over, the rev counter should register the engine rpm during the cranking phase if the sensor is good. But mine doesn't move at all, which is indicative of a faulty crank sensor. Apparently the ECU will not operate the fuel pump and/or injectors if it doesn't receive a signal from the crank sensor.

I have bought a replacement fuel pump relay and motronic relay anyway, the cost was £23 altogether so at least that eliminates a couple of components. I can't just work out if these two are functioning properly. I'm tempted to buy a new crank sensor too but they're a bit more expensive. I don't want to start spending lots of money replacing more parts than I need to.

[HaydnW92]

My new relays arrived so I fitted them both but this has made no difference. I tried a different battery, just in case, but this also made no difference. I started to follow the non-starting diagnosis instructions from my workshop manual but this just led to more confusion as it seemed to suggest the motronic ecu needs to be replaced.

I gave up on that and instead, decided to see if the car would run if I remove the fuel pump relay and jump pins 30 and 87 on the relay block. Sure enough, the car started just fine. The idle sounded a little bit lumpy but the car hasn't run for eight years or so, so I didn't expect it to settle down straight away. After a few minutes it sounded fine - some tappet noise coming from the rear head but this should go away once I have changed the oil and driven the car a bit.

So... What does this mean in terms of identifying the problem? The fuel pump relay is receiving power but seemingly isn't receiving the signal to activate the pump - does it get this signal from the motronic relay?

I think I need to start from scratch, as I'm confusing myself.

But at least the car runs now, even though it's only a temporary solution.

[alfisti-164]

Do you have the original alarm system? An alarm system can block the relay.

Been there, done that!

Override (jump) your alarm system and see if the relay works.
If that doesn't work, see if the motronic's signal (12v) reaches the relay, there might be a faulty wire.