Alfa 164 3.0 V6 12V QV "Q2" project

[killergame]

One just like that..

[killergame]

My precious Got them cheap.

[killergame]

And for the end. I have calculated a little bit how much will rebuild of 3.0 V6 12V cost me. I was quite surprised! Maybe, maybe 1500€ will be enough. And this is with almost all work done by me and material with my business discounts.

But it will be like new!

[alfa east]

Solid report and progress. Thanks for the update!

[killergame]

Finally found some time for engine again.






















Firts it looked alright. Bu then I soo strange order marks, which indicated alrady opened engine





Of course I didn't follow that strange order I, II, III...






Fun part. Some marks from some dried liquid. Very few scratches. But they were honed already, so..

Cylinder 1




Cylinder 2












Cylinder 3










Cylinder 4








Cylinder 5




Cylinder 6






Looks like whole engine was took apart. And biuld very bad togethe. Who hones only cylinder and leaves old pistons rings? Look how much dirt oil ring has in it..



Pistons vere 5x B class and 1x A class.

[killergame]

I got them measured. Not results I wanted. This V6 will cost me some serious money! All fucked up, because people rebuilding engines without knowledge.

All cylinders honed to C class. Cylinder 2 had some serious problems, because it is very worn.

Pistons. I don't know why, maybe already because to much big clearance or because they have left old piston rings. Pistons are ever bellow A class. You can't see any worn marks on them, but they are fucked up. Measured 2 times, to be sure.

Clearance between cylinder and piston should be 0.050 in 0.069 mm according to manuals specs. And mine have clearance bewteen 0.112 to 0.244 mm





Piston specs. Mine bellow any class.




Cylinder specs. Mine are let's say so, C class.




And clearance between both as it should be.




Would you say by look, that this is fucked piston? I wouldn't...




So now I am looking for other used set of pistons and cylinder, that will be within manual specs. I already found 7-8 sets (new and used). So something will probably be ok. Last option is new set pistons and cylinder, which is about 700-1000€

[alfa east]

I hope you find a set within the standards at reasonable price!

[164super]

Hi, any progress on the engine rebuild? Mine is similar spec 3.0 V6 12V year 91. Did you manage to get decent used pistons?

[Alfan]

I hope you find good parts, always a shame when things are not rebuilt properly!

[killergame]

No progress on engine rebuild All used pistons are garbage. All way bellow under specs. Also A class liners to get, impossible. So rare stuff!

I don't have any other option, then buy new set of C class pistons for 600€ and then some used B class liners and bore them to proper diameter for pistons to have correct clearance.


Also update for what happened in meantime.

30 pistons and 22 liners and also got another 6 pistons. All for trash.









Bought micrometer 0.01mm and measured all 30 pistons on 20°C.





The best two!






About car. Disassembling continuous. No rust so far.




After that I took a break from pistons and liner and star cleaning block.



Girlfriend having fun while I clean block


























Answer from Jim K. But problem is. That I don't manage to get even to 0.100 clearance




156 dreaming about V6




Second day of cleaning. Still not good. Engine gasket very "baked" on block and still few corners of dirt.















I am cleaning engine block with toothbrush, inox cleaning spirale and dish sponge (for parts where bearings come and liners). Hopefully I don't take any material from block with inox cleaning spirale. Because head gasket is very hard "baked" on block.

[killergame]

164 Super goes apart slowly, until it will be only chassis. Then some little rust to take care, primer 2K again and body. And then assembly of 3.0 starts







Chassis really have only few early spots of rust. Nothing serious and no holes. Main šroblem of course like every 164. Rear arms to chassis. Underneath it doesn't look serious, but inside, I don't know.. I have 2 options. Try to save this as much as possible. Or cut it open and put on another one from spare chassis, which has zero rust! But that means cuting chassis, which is never same after that. Thoughts?



Tripod reinforce for lifting points. After some time when body breaks, rust starts to eat this reinforce, until it is not strong enough and only falls in.








And after little scratching..Not so bad anymore.




And new like bottom part of chassis I got. This orange is only some italian sand.







Other stuff. Finally manage to clean warehouse. I gave 2 full van parts for free. And also throw away a lot parts which were not perfect condition.

Parts same for all 164, some TD and TS.



Only 3.0 parts





A little bit of all

[killergame]

Completely new Valeo clutch from original Alfa service. Old stock, so price was really funny. 33€ Year of construction 20.5.1998

[killergame]

Bought new liners from 166 3.0 V6 24V engine. Looked line new, B class (92.99 - 93.00 mm), should have only 130k km. To be honest I expected them to be a little bit better. But they are also worn to avout 93.01 mm. And 1 day before delivery, seller couldn't get one liner from engine, so he destroyed it completely














Destroyed












I even manage to get dial bore gauge.



Some measuring again



Notes




And final report hehe I have decided to put it together with 0.11 mm of clearance piston-liner. That means 0.04 mm more then max recommended tolerance in Alfa book (0.069 mm). But as Jim told me, that I should not worry about 0.1 mm clearance, and that engine will work without any problem. Jim I take your word!




If I compare this clearance with one from friends 75 3.0 V6 12V, where it was 0.13 to 0.15 mm and engine worked great, went like crazy and didn't even consume almost nothing oil. Then mine engine with compare to that, should work like a new. It is not perfect. But it is around 800€ cheaper then with new pistons or pistons + liners. And if engine would do any problem, I will take it apart and buy new pistons.

And another interesting thing. Almost all liners are identical used (+ - 0.01mm). One from 12V, other 24V, different km after them, one honed, other not, one normally lubricated, other not (in friends engine, they have put new rods in old engine, so liners were not lubricated like they should be), other classes and measures. And after all this, they are still almost same used in the end. Hard to believe, but it is true. Measuring devices are 100% accurate (got them checked).

[killergame]

Must have stuff. Engine stand. I must clean engine block a little bit more, to be perfect clean. Also waiting some original Alfa things from Italy. And then I can slowly start to assembly lower part of engine and go on heads check and rebuild.

Also waiting for ultrasonic cleaner 3L for cleaning of smaller parts.





And while putting engine on stand, also cleaned and repaired hole thread.

[alfa east]

Great photos; I keep following the Restoration with interest!

[killergame]

I have totally no time to post on all forums regular. So here it is few month from last post A lot of photos and progress coming!

Bought ultrasound cleaner












Result on tested TS piston.





Very loud stuff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY2CtzS ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Pistons disassembled. So much hard time with taking out pin clips without damage piston surface!




Disassembled shock absorbers. 3 very good and stiff, one damaged. I hope that I will be able to save it somehow! A lot of work with rebuild, cleaning rust, new primer protection and paint.





Luckily somebody has changed them, so both very good. And I also have 1 new!







And problem..





Engine..cleaned bridges of crankshaft.






Block 99% clean!



















Still need to clean seats of liners better.




Classis on 12V block. Corrosion near water holes.














This is what I was talking about. Tested on some old pistons. I made some rubber protection pads!





Pistons cleaned in ultra sound cleaner.





And then a loot more cleaning with toothbrush and other brushes and they look almost as new!












Put then in box









"Celebrated" 30 years of 164!



Little bit nuts? Probably yes hehe





Very nice to see so many 164!




Glyco main bearings STD



Crankshaft in block



Bearings in bridges



Plastigage on crankshaft


Torque in 3 steps


And unscrew nuts and check plastigage result


It is perfect clearance like it should be, 0.03 to 0.04 mm!






Order some original stuff




Liners honed only for oil grid






Why do you need to remove plugs and clean oil channels!

Only in one hole..







And from all 6





Brush for cleaning guns! Perfect for oil channels



Cleaning complete crankshaft



Also cleaned flywheel





And finally result of crankshaft cleaning






Crankshaft in block!

All plugs but first are perfect in crankshaft! First one went too deep. I thought It stops in at right deep. It doesn't! You need to put in in right deep.





First one that went too deep.







Others are great!







Crankshaft in



And tighten to right torque and nuts glued with loctite 270 green.



Spins like a charm!

[youtube]EYqOyqNOOds[/youtube]



Modified thermostat housing. Original old type costs 80€ and more. This new costs only 10€










Tried pistons ring pliers on old rings and pistons






And cleaned liners! Almost like new

Scarface



And back to normal. You can see difference which had water and which antifreeze.





Also cleaned top with very soft metal brush to clean old gasket leftovers.










And finale look. I am happy






Spoted problem



All liners in block





And oiled up very good






Cleaned rods!










All parts cleaned and weighed









Tolerance is up to 2g difference. Well, mine were 4g


A lot of work and not much progress.

First end to end setup. Not good



Second..also not good





Third. Better but still not there.





And finale. Always same result.










Took away material from small end. Only one was 185 g, other were all same 183 g.



Well one big end had much more material to took away. About 4g




And finale result all within 1-2 g difference between big ends and small ends.





Sooo much hard work to assemble pistons together. Those new pin clips are hardcore!




All pins polished.




Took 1 g from pin, rather then piston. You need to took a lot from piston for 1g and much less from pin. Also more safe!



And finished



Also clips in right position around gap



Bought dial gauge too




I have managed to get top deal! Front OE Alfa ricambi originale discs 281 x 26 mm and OE Alfa Ricambi originale front brake pads (i got one extra for sale in anybody interested?)




Made a device to check protrusion of liners from block





All like it needs to be.



Also put big end Glyco bearings in rods.






Goetze pistons rings.Those seems to be OEM Alfa Romeo. They are the same as original.



Really nice and good quality










Changed middle part from old 12V to new 24V tensioner bearing.






Pistons rings checked in smallest liner. Gap of rings is perfect! Between min and max tolerance! Also I have decided to change damaged liner. I don't want to take any chances.




First from 6




Finally got front headlight washer jet!



Photo of pistons rings installed on piston.



Also checked big end clearance which is perfect like it should be, 0.040 to 0.050 mm (for road and track day use)









Edge of screw with little grease


And thread with loctite 270 green.


And then tight to right torque





Looking better and better

[Alfan]

I have totally no time to post on all forums regular. So here it is few month from last post A lot of photos and progress coming!

You have been busy!! Great stuff

Bought ultrasound cleaner

Very loud stuff!

We have the same in the garage. I recommend you put some vibration damper between the handles of the tray and the casing, put the lid on top and some towels on top of it - it makes the garage a much more comfortable place to be

Already looking forward to your next update - now I just need to get going on my Q4...

[alfa east]

So impressed!

[ALFAHEIDA]

This is really a nice project. Great photo's.
Thnx for sharing your hard work.
Keep up the great work!!

Regards,

Erwin

[killergame]

So..looong time no update. I gave up.


No just kidding

I will install 24V exhaust headers on 12V engine. Just few modifications needed. And also bigger downpipe. 12V headers have 700 ml and 24V hedears have 1165 ml. Much better!

Photos of someone else that has already done that.





















I will also replace old EV1 injectors with new EV6. Which are almost direct replacement. But will still set up engine with wideband lambda.

Bosch 0 280 155 746







Bought tensioner rebuild set and bronze valve guides.



Also bought new cylinder Goetze. Paid it like crazy, but ok.











And also luckily found out old torque wrench broke and didn't make correct torque to all big end bearings. Bought new.

[killergame]

After that, I was finally able to finish engine block.





I also need to change this tensioner bolt




And oil pump preparations and checking.









Something happened here. I have grind it off a little and polish it.











Grinding of piston with valve grind paste.



Nice seat



And making all surfaces flat. You can't believe how unflat they are!











I need to brush off this triangle so I can have flat surface



Drying

[killergame]

And everything flat like it should be!



All prepared



And almost finished




Long time not used



Oil plugs with new seals



Water plugs with new seals



I don't even know where should I use all these on engine block. Probably half od them for Alfa 75 sincer lower parts set of seals is same for 164 and 75.



For last oil pump bolt, you need to improvise.



Almost like new bolts. I need to buy new only for water pump





Took out destroyed bolt.



New crankshaft seal installed







Never trust only seal. Always put a very very thin layer of cyclo grey paste, gasket and again thin layer of paste.







And bolts to 9.5 Nm. I have bought 5-25 Nm torque wrench too!







Oil filter to see about oil cooler and exchanger how it will be installed.



Also tried citric acid. Miricle! Before





After. Not even polished yet. And I also have another better set to do the same





Shiny things!



Installing water pump





New bolts



Cleaning of hydraulic tensioner



Parts of hydraulic tensioner





Almost missed that it has hidden seal inside





Rust free, cleaned and painted in primer paint and then 800°C paint





Both springs like they should be



And went cleaning this s*it



First part of oil pan cleaned

[killergame]

Toothed gear of timing belt cleaned and mounted


Cleaned main pulley




Then I had a problem with 800°C paint not drying up. Bought another 800°C which had a correct procedure written on it. You need to bake paint at around 160-200°C for 1 hour! And then it is resistant to petrol, diesel, brake cleaner etc (I have tried it!).











Baked


Pulley in its place



Flattening of tensioner




Putting together


Checking how it goes up. I was still waiting for the new bolt



Also sealed last crankshaft holder with paste, not original cigaret seals











Clean oil pai. Quality of mold is horrible!












Looking great already


Tried oil level sensor and oil level stick



And oil pan up.

[killergame]

Rebuilded tensioner



Installed



Engine block finnished!





And then I went to heads. One pulley went down without problem. Other..well I am looking for new one











First attempt was twisted bolts



And second were Alfa 164 shock absorber bolts. Success.



All apart



Plug out and exhaust shaft out





Found all 6 exhaust tappets destroyed.



Heads are full of holes in aluminum









Very nice pool of dirk and sticky oil



[youtube]BboQE1XkZfw[/youtube]

Only valves and springs to remove. Need to make tool.



Everything in boxes.

[killergame]

No oil leak at all



Need 2 new bolts again




Someone before me made seal



Anther destroyed even more than one before. Set of 6 new tappets ~90€ with very good discount.


And then same head with pully which didn't want to get off. Exhaust shaft didn't want to go out.


All "baked" with oil




Put in work flange for 24V exhaust to fit 12V. Made like CSC



And for downpipe also. 12 has 42 mm and 24V 52mm.




Primer 2k and black 2k for chassis and suspension parts, etc. And Alfa Rosso red 130 for valve covers, intake manifold and brakes.



Fit of 24V head shield. Will be great!



Taking valves apart with home made tool.





Oil pulley removed



Head taken apart





Both heads empty




Invested in measureing tools



New bremi ignition cables cost 165€. So I decided to make new at home with original cable endings, just like OE Bosch/Beru.



Inox pipe 41x1,5 mm for exhaust manifold modification



New exhaust tappets



And valve cover cleaned. All corroded




2 days of cleaning!













Before after. This one was really hardcoreburned oil!





And both cleaned



Valves already getting ready for cleaning